Player feedback needed - Levelling progression

[Life 0]

Hello players of Aincrad, in light of recent events i have decided to start a new Staff trend, where we ask you questions about certain aspects of the system. The first topic I would like to discuss at the moment is levelling progression. I'd like you to tell us how you currently feel about how it is at the moment. 

If you think it's perfect, then vote so and boast about it a little.

However if you feel like it could be improved, then vote so and give a rough explanation about why or how it can be better.

EDIT: Keep in mind, that you can say that things need to be spread out different in terms of scaling. Perhaps over the amount of sp lowers, or maybe even increases. Do you want even levelling, or progressively harder levelling. Let me know!

 

[Greg Baxen 0]

My only real complaint is that Levelling up is REALLY SLOW if you don't have someone to help you powerlevel.

Well, unless you decide to be crazy and try to solo quests with field bosses in them, but WHO would be crazy enough to try that?

[Jomei 0]

In response to @Greg Baxen , where yes, you are completely right. It is a very slow process that I know myself. Being here for just under a year and being constant on the site for that long has brought me to the level I am today. 

However, you need to think of it as you would an actual MMORPG. You can just run out and fight the strongest enemies to get more exp. but you'll most likely die. So, like any good RPG, you gotta team up! Whether it be with one super high level that can make the tough mobs seem like tiny kittens, or with a group of lower leveled players ( or ones about your level) that can make for more of an exciting and role-play based fight. 

[Mayuri 0]

I liked the system better when it went by how much you post rather than how much you finish, but that's just the fact that I'm horrible at finishing things. I get why it had to change though. It got broken 

I haven't noticed issue with it being harder/easier to level and I don't understand the scaling on Tristan's leveling thing as I don't math and I don't like to math. So I can't really give a good responce other than to state my opinion of how i liked it before XD

[Takao 0]

Part of the reason I conceptualized the sub-dungeon system was to help smooth out the leveling curve. I'm not sure that a level-by-post system really works now, especially considering how some people(*coughrex*) got insane boosts when the forum software updated, and level-by-post also encourages a posting blitz situation a lot more than the level-by-SP system does. I do think there is kind of an issue with using skill points as experience though, and that's that after a certain point they become useless. Their main purpose, which was once to rank up skills, is now split 50/50 between ranking up skills and leveling up. Eventually you'll run out of skills.

I think the curve is fine really, but I do think that looking into different methods to get SP would be a good idea. Perhaps changing the thread completion rewards a bit, so that you get 1 SP for every 20 posts instead of just 1 SP per thread.

[Mayuri 0]

There's been discussion of how to improve upon earning of SP particularly for lower level players. I'm hoping they come to fruition because they're really good ideas.

I do really like your suggestion, Takao. I could totally get behind that.

[Shirien 0]

As an outsider who has spent less than a week here and is only level two, I think it makes sense.

I have played many, MANY MMO over the years. Things getting frustratingly hard to level up when you get to the higher levels is only natural to me. I will say though on the other hand there is the small detail that older MMOs ordinarily have lower levels become stronger sooner so that the 10-20 level cap raise isn't just another obstacle for the newcomers.

In short my uneducated opinion is that if a cap gets raised, or perhaps newer floors unlock, the requirements to reach the mid levels, not the high levels, be easier on them. There are small details that are very un-mmo like that I can accept however, like the higher leveled bosses giving a low level player the same EXP (SP) as a guy twenty levels stronger. Normally the higher leveled player would get less exp and the lower player more. A 'risk' bonus if you will. That said I am going to go with my original opinion of 'it makes sense'.

[Mack 0]

I agree with the 1 SP per completed RP page thing. That encourages more complete RP which is a good thing.

My beef is with the HP numbers. Low-level HP is too low compared to base mobs. Low levels die way too easily. I propose a simple change. Instead of (level x 4) for HP give every player a base HP of 10 and then add (level x 4) to that. Basically, it'd give everyone a +10 HP boost. 

[Jomei 0]

^ That actually does not sound like a bad idea. Similar to how we do SP. 

[Mayuri 0]

In talking with Tristan previously, players can create easier mobs than what the floor calls for to get materials, you just don't get a drop from the creature when you kill it. As materials are easy to come by I don't see a problem with a player not getting materials through killing mobs for a few threads.  I've done it with a few of my other characters. There is still the option of foraging for materials earlier on if a player really wants to collect them. New players shouldn't be so anxious to run off to their deaths if dying is truly a concern early on. It's also a good idea not to go it alone. I've had many other players help me through mobs early on. Isn't that the point of an mmorpg anyway? You can only get so far alone in most of the ones I've played.

I think it'd be interesting to give a scaling for SP in boss fights, as suggested by Shirien. 

[Hirru 0]

With the health aspect, it was more to encourage teamwork and numbers at an early stage.  Back when post count was the norm, you saw solo players making their own since a solo thread was 20 posts for the original poster, which was automatically level 3, if I remember correctly.  Teamwork wasn't really needed unless you wanted a social thread or actually needed help with a hard quest.

I don't disagree with what you have, Mack.  I just think that if people get buffed, then so too will Mobs.  There has to be a balance.

Now with SP gained every page instead of every thread.  I like the idea.  As of right now, most threads stop after the 21st post, as there isn't any need to go any farther unless a sub-dungeon is found, or a quest requires 41 or more posts.  With this, I can see more people building upon more pages into single threads, gaining more SP / Col / Mats (if hunting) as they go on.  Though, I don't know how the staff will take going through several pages of rp, just to make sure that the rules were followed and that nothing was exploited.  Especially when there is an entire community doing it.

I do like that idea, Takao, and would endorse it, if I could.

 

[Nikodemus_Blackwood 1]

I agree with @Mack and @Jomei on the the SP per Completed thread and bump to HP. I also think we need a few more quests as well. Like 3 or 4 per floor, each with reasonable SP rewards, and maybe something else like a special drop or something on one or two of them much like what we have now, but just more of them. It gives us low level players something to when people don't have time for longer RP's and can help the newer players get some levels under their belt to get them going.

 

As a new player I burned through almost every quest I could do Solo, and am now working with others at what i feel is a comfortable level on the missions that could be, but shouldnt be solo'd with others and getting more involved in other RPs with people I met doing quests with. It helps us get to know people and have friends or acquaintances we can turn to for help with other things, and vice versa. Just my 2 cents.

[Zandra 0]

A thought about SP/page or 20 post, it needs to be balanced or else you can just make a party with 10 players and you gets 1 SP every 2 personal posts. If going with personal 20 posts/SP if you are a group off three players you need 3 pages(60 total posts) for each personal SP. Maybe something like 1 SP for each page x half players in thread.(1 or 2 players=1 SP every pages. 3-4 players 1 SP every 2 pages(starting with first). 5-6 players every third page(starting with the first)). Just a comment and an idea to solving it. :)

[Baldur 0]

I'm too sick to read all the comments currently, so bare with me if I'm a bit non-sensical.

A) I think we need to consider a rising minimum floor. Not huge, but as we get further in the tower, it's gonna be silly for a player to ever consider leveling up, and it will get exponentially harder to replenish frontline ranks.

B) I think early rank skill costs should be lower. Right now, rank 1 costs 5 points. I think we should lower this a bit, to incentivize players to spread out their SP a bit. Right now, the optimal thing you can do is max out your sword skill before putting points into anything else. The first ranks of armor are almost worthless, and they're expensive considering the bonus they gave.

I know B doesn't sound like it's an issue of the leveling progression, but it is. I'm level 24 and I have Katana mastered and 2 points in charge. That just seems silly to me. I should have a lot more skills than that (even though I fully realize how many points it took to master).

[Takao 0]

1 hour ago, Zandra said:

A thought about SP/page or 20 post, it needs to be balanced or else you can just make a party with 10 players and you gets 1 SP every 2 personal posts. If going with personal 20 posts/SP if you are a group off three players you need 3 pages(60 total posts) for each personal SP.

You can already do this with the current system. What's stopping a party of 10 players from making a thread now, each of them only posting twice, then closing the thread and making a new one?

[Ratatosk 0]

Yup, very slow, like everyone else said. Most of the people here talk about teamwork, but I don't really see too much of it. I guess some people here (Me) are a bit reluctant to work with others since it takes them a while to post. The main high leveled players here only roleplay with 1-2 other people at a time in a single thread, and I haven't seen an Open Party in quite a while. We should make more of those (OP's) and there should also be a new system that makes leveling a bit easier.

[Endilix 0]

So far, you guys are essentially just addressing things that already exist or slightly modifying them. 1 SP/20 posts is pretty much how I do it, even in multi-part stories. I break them up into parts, which is completely legal. The only time it's illegal is if a combat goes past the 20 page mark, in which I finish the combat and then break it up as normal. So you guys are essentially asking for a system that already exists if players play their cards right.

That said, I think the leveling system is fine for as not complicated as it is. We can certainly think of grand leveling systems that make things super complicated, but that'd just give the mods a headache. If I had to weigh in on a change, it would be capping levels based on the floor we are on and balancing everything around that "Max Level". But again, major game changes, mods have a headache, high levels will be sad for all the work they've already done, etc. But that's all I've got.

TL:DR: I think the leveling system is fine. If you want 1 SP/20 posts, make multi-part stories like me. :P

[Aster 0]

I personally like the idea of having a separate EXP system and SP system. A similar table as what we have now can be set up for leveling, like Level 2 = 5 EXP, Level 3 = 10 EXP, and it can be balanced at a nice curve. Each completed RP page rewards X EXP split evenly among all players included. If there is a necessary concern for players who "pop in" to PPs or OPs and only have a fraction of the shared posts, I could see staff awarding EXP when the thread is locked to reduce exploits. If there was a mostly consistent post order, it's an even split. If someone showed up for a post or two, they get less EXP.

In terms of SP, this would be rewarded on a level-up. Going off of the SAO Wiki, I like the thought of 3 SP being awarded on a level up, but that could certainly be tweaked along with SP costs. Basically, getting more than 1 SP per level would be nice. SP would function only for choosing and ranking your skills, where EXP would determine your level and health.

Quote

Pros:

• EXP/Levels can be awarded at a more generous rate, allowing faster leveling.
• EXP curves, meaning quests and dungeon rewards can appropriately scale.
  • Say a high-level helps a low-level kill a quest boss. They split the EXP, so the high-level would get ~1/4 of a level in EXP, but the low-level could go up a full or multiple levels, depending on the amount of EXP rewarded. (Basically, power-leveling would make more sense)
• Staff moderation can keep the system fair.

Cons:

• More numbers, more work.
• A re-vamp of the level system would be necessary, meaning everyone would have to transition.
• In the long run, it may not be as much of an improvement compared to the work put in to implement.

 

I can see how this could be completely redundant, depending on how things are scaled--I haven't sat down and looked at numbers. I think this is at least potential in a nice direction for the leveling system. Let me know what you think!

Edited April 28, 2016 by Asteria

[Mayuri 0]

15 hours ago, Baldur said:

B) I think early rank skill costs should be lower. Right now, rank 1 costs 5 points. I think we should lower this a bit, to incentivize players to spread out their SP a bit. Right now, the optimal thing you can do is max out your sword skill before putting points into anything else. The first ranks of armor are almost worthless, and they're expensive considering the bonus they gave.

I know B doesn't sound like it's an issue of the leveling progression, but it is. I'm level 24 and I have Katana mastered and 2 points in charge. That just seems silly to me. I should have a lot more skills than that (even though I fully realize how many points it took to master).

This was done because it was pointed out skills were not an easy thing to come by in SAO, and there were many high level characters close to capping their skills out. They felt it wouldn't be challenging, and they'd quit before we even got very far. At level 24 I think 2-3 skills is acceptable, you shouldn't have a full skill set at such a low level and it makes a person plan out how best to utilize SP early on.

 

14 hours ago, Takao said:

You can already do this with the current system. What's stopping a party of 10 players from making a thread now, each of them only posting twice, then closing the thread and making a new one?

Someone tried that, and got 20 people in a thread. It was closed before they could finish it. But yeah, Takao has a point, there's nothing really stopping anyone from trying again anyway.

 

12 hours ago, Ratatosk said:

Yup, very slow, like everyone else said. Most of the people here talk about teamwork, but I don't really see too much of it. I guess some people here (Me) are a bit reluctant to work with others since it takes them a while to post. The main high leveled players here only roleplay with 1-2 other people at a time in a single thread, and I haven't seen an Open Party in quite a while. We should make more of those (OP's) and there should also be a new system that makes leveling a bit easier.

Why don't you post your own OP or just ask other people to play with you? RP invitations work both ways :)

[orhalimi 0]

At last, good luck!

What about lowering the sp for non combat skill to make them attractive?