Dagger vs. Rapier

[Ebony 0]

There is a serious problem with the sword arts, and mainly the rapier and dagger. These are the two weapons I am most accustomed with after all, which is why im going to be using them as an example. A lot of people dont understand how the difference between a x14 sword art and a x16 sword art can be a problem. As such, i'll be giving you the math for maxed out stats on both with buffs, just because i already have those worked out.

However, before I address the straight math, i would like to address the sword arts of the two weapons alone. Comparing and contrasting the two will show you that up until that last rank, sword arts are relatively the same. The big difference before rank five of the two is the extra sword arts you can get with two ranks of martial arts. Dagger has a pretty good stun, and Rapier has an alright AOE. However, no one wastes SP on the MA sword arts, and those two are very similar as well, although the stun is probably more useful than the AOE.

So, it's not like Rapier really gets anything over the dagger, yet the dagger gets a x16 as opposed to the rapiers x14. I can hear the comments down below now. "Theres only a x2 difference, it's not a big deal." 

Yeah, well, I think the difference between 528 damage, and 462 damage is a pretty big deal. Calculations: 

Dagger: 5 (Skill)+1 (Base)+ 6 (Weapon)+ 12 (Dmg Potion and Alcoholic)+5 (Charge)+1 (Athletics)+1 (Ferocity)+2 (Crit)=33x16= 528    

Rapier: 5 (Skill)+1 (Base)+ 6 (Weapon)+ 12 (Dmg Potion and Alcoholic)+5 (Charge)+1 (Athletics)+1 (Ferocity)+2 (Crit)=33x14= 462

 

In conclusion, Rapier and Dagger are almost exactly the same weapon in terms of sword arts except for that 14 and 16x. Something needs to be changed, whether it means giving rapier a buff of some sort, or a new SA with high rank AOE to balance the pros and cons out, or a nerf to dagger to make things balanced.

Lastly, Im not adressing the other weapons as I dont have much experience with them and i havent compared their sword arts. However, i do know that whip has a 16x, which i feel should probably be nerfed as well. I dont know much about those sword arts though. Please vote in the poll above, and dont let your weapon type influence your vote. 

[Takao 0]

Why not just take dagger or whip if you want the damage, and a weapon with higher stuns/AoE if you want the stuns/AoE? There's no real point to buffing another skill's sword arts to compete with them, and nerfing them would do more harm than good.

[Ebony 0]

33 minutes ago, Takao said:

Why not just take dagger or whip if you want the damage, and a weapon with higher stuns/AoE if you want the stuns/AoE? There's no real point to buffing another skill's sword arts to compete with them, and nerfing them would do more harm than good.

50 SP is a lot, enough to grandmaster a skill. Not all of us have the time or muse to go grind 50 more Sp to make up for an imbalance in the sword arts. And I dont see how nerfing Dagger or Whip slightly so that their equal to their counterparts would do more harm than good except for in your case where you went and grinded to get dagger. 

[Shirien 0]

I am somewhat forced to agree since I noticed the same thing and chose the dagger because of that sweet, sweet damage. I mean, not a lot of people seem to actually use rapiers in general I've noticed, and this might be part of the reason. For all intents it's a less functional dagger, so why is it there?

That said, it seems a little unfair to say "Why not just take x" due to the fact there is no SP reset available. Perhaps they would/could if such an option were present. xP Once you pick your weapon skill you are locked into it.

[Takao 0]

Making them equal to their counterparts defeats the purpose of having them in the first place. It's not necessarily unfair to say that if you want to do x, you take a weapon that does x. That's the reason some weapon skills have sword arts that have higher AoE multipliers, and why some have higher stuns. That information is also available to you from when you create your character, and when sword arts were introduced players were given the option to reallocate your SP, so the fault is entirely on you if you pick the wrong one.

I agree that something should be done with Rapier because the damage and supplementary abilities lean in neither direction, but I don't think putting it on par with current Dagger/Whip is the solution.

While I was on staff, I was working on a rework to sword arts that further differed their intended purposes and gave them special abilities. Dagger's SAs received overall nerfs but larger buffs when used with stealth, Curved Sword had special AoE skills that hit more than 4 enemies, things like that. Overall multipliers were closer together, and their auxiliary abilities were what differed them instead. I think doing something like that would be a better way to go about balancing the sword arts, instead of just making a bunch of them replicas of one another with a couple differing SAs.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Takao

[Ebony 0]

3 minutes ago, Takao said:

Making them equal to their counterparts defeats the purpose of having them in the first place. It's not necessarily unfair to say that if you want to do x, you take a weapon that does x. That's the reason some weapon skills have sword arts that have higher AoE multipliers, and why some have higher stuns. That information is also available to you from when you create your character, and when sword arts were introduced players were given the option to reallocate your SP, so the fault is entirely on you if you pick the wrong one.

I agree that something should be done with Rapier because the damage and supplementary abilities lean in neither direction, but I don't think putting it on par with current Dagger/Whip is the solution.

While I was on staff, I was working on a rework to sword arts that further differed their intended purposes and gave them special abilities. Dagger's SAs received overall nerfs but larger buffs when used with stealth, Curved Sword had special AoE skills that hit more than 4 enemies, things like that. Overall multipliers were closer together, and their auxiliary abilities were what differed them instead. I think doing something like that would be a better way to go about balancing the sword arts, instead of just making a bunch of them replicas of one another with a couple differing SAs.

This isnt what I'm suggesting. I was just using dagger, whip, and rapier as examples because I know them best. I certainly dont think that Rapier should be changed to mimic dagger. However, it really already does that with less damage. Im also not saying that all weapons should be unique. After all, we only have 3 things that we can make a weapon specialie in (Not counting Wild Dance and it's special effects). AOE, Stun, and Damage.  

What I am saying is that they should all be equal in their own right. No weapon should be a ton better than the rest. Whip and Dagger are the damage dealers (As little sense as that makes logically), so their equal in damage output. Same with the AOE and Stun weapons. Rapier is just kind of there, with sort of high damage but no good stuns or AOEs. 

Im sure there are problems with other weapons, but once again, im most experienced with rapier, dagger, and wild dance.

[Teayre 0]

I will point out to grandmaster Katana it cost myself 55 SP due to having to take a rank in 1h Curved sword. (Before that it used to be 3 ranks)

Yet I took it out of CHOICE for the RP quality it offered my character. I'll agree that the SAs need balancing, but in a way that offers each weapon a unique feel to it. If all weapons are the same, then there is no point in even having skills. I would also like to point out that Battojutsu, as a unique skill isn't even on par with daggers & wild dance in terms of damage sure at max rank I can get a x15 SA however like you yourself pointed out. We don't all have the time to grind out 50 SP.

[Rain 0]

Instead of changing sword arts, why don't we change how weapons work. Right now all weapons do the same damage. ALL. To even out sword arts we can change how weapons work so their base damage would be different. So you can have a dagger with 1 as a base damage but be able to hit multiple times, while a 2handed axe can have a bigger base with less hitting.

Now this is just base. Te enhancements are a different story. I think those are fine as they are..

[Hikoru 0]

I have to agree with Takao. Dagger, Rapier, Two handed Straight Sword, they all have their unique perks. Dagger and Rapier are more Damaged based, Two-Handed Straight Sword and Katana are about AoE, and things Like Matrial Arts and such are based on Stuns. Each weapon has it's calling for the person, you just need to find which one fits your character and base it around there. Really, I see no point in having to go back AGAIN and try and change the SA's, when their pretty even as it is. Dagger is made for more stealth tactics, and if your behind a person and attack them, you will do way more damage than in the front. Rapier is made for one-on-one combat, and is used as such.

I really and truly think that ALL SA's are equal, and they shouldn't be buffed anymore than it is. I mean, they changed the Rapier from x13 to x14 because people kept complaining, and I talked to Tristan, and he said that's all it really needs. Rapier is supposed to be a damage weapon, but it doesn't have to be top dog, and yes, Dagger does the most damage, but it takes a lot of Energy, SP Grinding, and overall tough work to earn that damage, like every SA on every weapon.

[Baldur 0]

On 5/24/2016 at 10:52 AM, Hikoru said:

I have to agree with Takao. Dagger, Rapier, Two handed Straight Sword, they all have their unique perks. Dagger and Rapier are more Damaged based, Two-Handed Straight Sword and Katana are about AoE, and things Like Matrial Arts and such are based on Stuns. Each weapon has it's calling for the person, you just need to find which one fits your character and base it around there. Really, I see no point in having to go back AGAIN and try and change the SA's, when their pretty even as it is. Dagger is made for more stealth tactics, and if your behind a person and attack them, you will do way more damage than in the front. Rapier is made for one-on-one combat, and is used as such.

I really and truly think that ALL SA's are equal, and they shouldn't be buffed anymore than it is. I mean, they changed the Rapier from x13 to x14 because people kept complaining, and I talked to Tristan, and he said that's all it really needs. Rapier is supposed to be a damage weapon, but it doesn't have to be top dog, and yes, Dagger does the most damage, but it takes a lot of Energy, SP Grinding, and overall tough work to earn that damage, like every SA on every weapon.

I'm no exactly following what you're saying here.

Quote

Dagger and Rapier are more Damaged based

This is the crux of the complaint, because Dagger is just a straight up better version of Rapier. 16x vs 14x and 6x stun vs 5x stun. I won't even go into how rank 1 and 2 sword arts are useless.

But have we really pointed out how Whip and Dagger should NOT be the highest damaging weapons? How does that even make sense? 2 hand weapons should have the advantage in damage.

Quote

you just need to find which one fits your character and base it around there.

That really varies player by player. I know a lot of people that want to use other weapons, but don't because they're poorly designed. Then you have players like me who take Katana because it's the character concept and I put up with spending more SP than everyone else for a weapon that isn't top tier.

Quote

Dagger is made for more stealth tactics, and if your behind a person and attack them, you will do way more damage than in the front. Rapier is made for one-on-one combat, and is used as such.

This really confused me. Are you saying this is how it should be? Cause if so, I agree. However, this is not how it is currently. There is no difference between being behind a person and attacking them vs in the front. Rapier is not made for one-on-one combat, nor is it used as such. These are, however, great examples of how they SHOULD be designed.

Quote

I really and truly think that ALL SA's are equal,

This is objectively wrong. I put all of the sword arts into a spreadsheet and there are clearly weapons that have absolute advantage, and some that have no positive side.

Quote

and yes, Dagger does the most damage, but it takes a lot of Energy, SP Grinding, and overall tough work to earn that damage

I'm confused by this as well. Dagger doesn't take any extra work vs any other weapon, so it fails as any kind of a justification. 

I agree that weapons are trying to have an identity, however the design intent and how well it achieved that goal are very different. Currently we only have 3 metrics to judge a sword style by. Damage is does (max), damage is does (max) with an AoE, damage it does (max) with a stun, the presence of an AoE Stun. I leave out the number of stuns and AoEs and high damage attacks, because of how they interact with energy and time-to-kill. 

Ideally, a weapon that was at the top of one of these charts would be at the bottom of another, but that's not actually how it plots out. That would be how you could have weapons that are not top damage, but are still useful. That's not saying that Rapier is bad, just that if you look at the system, there is objectively no reason to take it over dagger except for RP flavor. Assuming you're someone who cares about numbers. As I said, I went with Katana back when you still needed 3 ranks in OHCS, which pretty much meant you were 5 levels behind anyone else, all because it was my character concept. But if my weapon wasn't part of my character concept, then there's only really 2 choices. Top Single Target Damage, and Top AoE Damage (I leave stun out, because it can't be used for 2 rounds, and fights never last that long).