SAO-RPG Player Killing Rules Discussion

[Mack 0]

Alright, enough is enough.

Player Killing (PK) in a perma-death pen and paper RPG setting, such as this game is, needs to be hashed out and fixed. Rules and boundaries need to be established. This needs to be done by EVERYONE in the community because it has the greatest potential character effect on everyone as we have seen through recent events. I'm not naming PK's lately, if you need to know about them ask around.

I want ideas from everyone, I want input from everyone.

The PK rules are, and will continue to be, worked on.

Answer these questions:

1. What form should PK take? Defend your answer.

2. Should PK be mutually agreed upon when involving two PC's?

3. Should agreement to enter a duel, regardless of location, automatically mean that both duelling players are alright with the potential for PK?

4. What threads should never be allowed to be PK in?

5. Any other PK relevant information you want to share?

Thread Rules:

1. You will all maintain civil communication. No vulgarity, no racism, no sexism, no personal attacks against other members or staff.

2. We have a community problem, we need to solve it like a community. No idea is a bad one, share it and we will all discuss it.

3. When you respond to someone else's idea don't just say it's good or bad, tell us why.

4. Thread jacking will be treated through the deletion of thread jacking posts in this thread.

5. This is absolutely NOT the place to discuss the validity of the PK's in the past two Boss Fight Threads, plus Manta's PK today in the Motley Crew thread. We are talking about the issue of PK rules like civilized people, something I firmly believe we are ALL capable of doing as mature individuals.

6. This is NOT the place to divide up into sides and start cheering for teams. That will tear us apart.

7. This is NOT the place to discuss potential punishments for recent actions. It serves no useful purpose. 

8. If you need to vent, PM me and vent privately. Do not air your figurative dirty laundry publicly.

[Takao 0]

Answer these questions:

1. What form should PK take? Defend your answer.
Outside of duels, PKing should be available to players in the form of NPCs only. I cannot name a single "positive" that has come from players killing players, with the exception of some people using it as a venue to jump start their character development. If they want to go down that route, they can do it with NPCs and not with another user's creation.

2. Should PK be mutually agreed upon when involving two PC's?
See #5.

3. Should agreement to enter a duel, regardless of location, automatically mean that both duelling players are alright with the potential for PK?
Yes.

4. What threads should never be allowed to be PK in?
See #5.

5. Any other PK relevant information you want to share?
I had this idea in the middle of writing my response so I can't be bothered to go back and edit any mismatched information.

Add a prefix tag to PP/OP threads, either NK or KE. NK stands for No Kill, KE for Kill Enabled. In NK threads, you cannot be killed by player characters unless you accept a duel request. In KE threads, the opposite is true. Thread titles would look something like this: [NK-PP - F5] <thread title> or [KE-OP - F10] <thread title>. That way players have a way to protect themselves and know what they're getting into before they join a thread.

Also, maybe consider adding a new thread tag for boss raids with their own rules. "BP" or something. It's a bit confusing going back and forth between OP and PP for the raid threads.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Takao

[Creius 0]

Personally, I really think Takao's system would work to mitigate the amount of anger at being PK'ed because it should have been foreseen. Though, if a player valued their character and received an invite to a KE thread then it could probably be assumed that you are being targeted, making PK intent fairly obvious. While that would help reduce some of the drama it is little better than the consensual PKing since after being invited it could be assumed you were invited to be killed, unless you were a really good friend of the people in the thread.

Answer these questions:

1. What form should PK take? Defend your answer.

I see PK easily being utilized through duels that are meant to result in a death. Also, PK should be able to happen within RP restrictions. There should be an precise reason which should be given to why a character would kill another. People are not just borne into a world already insane and out for blood, well not most people.

2. Should PK be mutually agreed upon when involving two PC's?

To avoid drama, yes. Although, if a player can RP well enough then malicious intent from them should be fairly obvious so RPing with them should be agreement enough.

3. Should agreement to enter a duel, regardless of location, automatically mean that both dueling players are alright with the potential for PK?

Yes, if you agree to a duel to the death or any sort of fight which would not have a restriction on the amount of health lost then you should be prepared to die.

4. What threads should never be allowed to be PK in?

I personally do not see any issue with the act of PKing so it could be allowed anywhere, besides safezones of course.

5. Any other PK relevant information you want to share?

There are some issues with PKing that really need to be addressed besides the when and where aspect in my opinion. As I mentioned there should be a legitimate reason behind killing another player, whether it be PK Guild or past grievances between the player. Maybe a system where a player contacts an admin of some sort to verify that there is indeed a reason before a PK occurs so that RDM does not happen.

Also, damage and defense. With some of the higher level characters on the sight I watched the boss fight and saw them dealing hundreds of damage. At level twenty, if one decided to grandmaster a weapon skill instead of unlocking other skills, with a fully damage oriented weapon could deal over 120 damage with their highest damaging sword art without the crit involved, some going to well over 150. The number does not mean much in itself unless put in perspective of defense and health. Mitigation, at a max for Tier 2 as we are, is 84 (30 mit from the skill and a total of 54 (9*2*3) for the enhancement)*. That means that even for the weaker attacks that is a floating 40 damage per hit with that sword art if someone decided to pour all their SP into an armour skill. Of course, both of those are unreal as I don't know of anyone that did such but still, that would be half someone's health instantly. That does not even speak measures for the damage that can be done once one buffs themselves to high heaven (going to use Teayre's attack since it is a good example. She dealt a crit. sword art blow that was almost four hundred damage. Considering that at max 84 of that was mitigatable that still leaves well over three hundred health to be reduced, a HP number that will not be reached until level 75, a level almost thirty levels higher). The true issue is somewhere within the underlying system of combat, which would be hard to resolve. It is too easy to roll a crit and then deal an ungodly amount of damage before someone has a chance to react, which is realistic in some sense but not fair for a player devoting time and energy to the site with the only real risk being frustration.

Now that that little spiel is done xD Thanks for reading all that. I just thought I would want to bring that up because that is what I believe to be the real issue, somewhere within the health. PKing would not be a big issue if people could fight back or even stop the death before it happens but when it is way too easy to cut down players it is hard to implement such a system. If necessary I would have to agree with Takao on a point he made saying that it might be reasonable to take PK away since it really is only taking rather than giving. Reducing it to duels might be necessary *shrugs* Am skrub. Peace *drops the mic*

 

*That is permanent mitigation. If you account for a potion then that can be another 18 mitigation at tier two.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Creius

[Opal 0]

Answer these questions:

1. What form should PK take? Defend your answer.
I have spoken my mind on this to the committee already but will express my thoughts on here as well. PKing is a serious business, and it can break people and the community up when it targets another player. All the time and effort one puts into it and to have it casually tossed aside is pretty radical in a bad way.So to remedy this, if a person wishes to PK, they can create their own stories and kill NPCs and NOT characters owned by the player. You can still wear the Orange proudly as being a PKer and you can also make yourself a renowned PKKer as well; so should you role play that way. In this case, you can still create your Demon PK stories and players are safe from being PKed since it will be NPC fodder for stories. 

2. Should PK be mutually agreed upon when involving two PC's?

Should a player wish to no longer use their current character, if its mutually acceptable between the two in a thread. One player may kill the other player, I believe this besides mutual duals, will be an allowable case scenario should one player wish to be killed by another. 

 

3. Should agreement to enter a duel, regardless of location, automatically mean that both duelling players are alright with the potential for PK?

Yes of course. Users should use their discretion when dueling another player. Both will know their lives are possibly on the line, hidden motives and such will need to be taken into consideration by both parties. 

4. What threads should never be allowed to be PK in?

If we make PKing strictly on NPCs alone, I dont see a problem doing it with any thread. Of course, NPCs wont be joining Raid Threads unless its a story specific NPC in which case, they should be open game for other players which can add some situational yet fun explorations for those who like to PK and those are who against it. NPCs as in those either created by the system, or GM created NPCs for story purposes. 

5. Any other PK relevant information you want to share?

None that I can think of the top of my head. :) 

Edited May 26, 2016 by Opal

[Grave 0]

1. What form should PK take? Defend your answer.
PKing should be limited to consensual PKing of other PCs, another player's NPC (if they have one) or unbarred PKing of custom NPCs created by the PKer. There's no reason for a player to go up and kill another PC without warning, unless it's for character development, but even then the costs brought around by the player's death outweigh any sort of character development; you are destroying all past, present and future development of a character only to further your own, so unless it's consensual, no running around murdering people.

2. Should PK be mutually agreed upon when involving two PC's?
Basically what I said above.

3. Should agreement to enter a duel, regardless of location, automatically mean that both duelling players are alright with the potential for PK?
Certainly. We run that risk as it is in duels; if you are consenting to a duel, you are also consenting to the possibility of someone's damage to go past the point it should.

4. What threads should never be allowed to be PK in?
Anything obviously in a Safe Zone, but also those that are Social settings, with characters just talking and farming out in the field. No one wants to die when talking about the real world with someone; that would be ironically painful.

5. Any other PK relevant information you want to share?
A Retaliation system, that's all I have to suggest. If the 'limited PKing' doesn't fall through, at least give those randomly attacked a chance to respond with an LD roll to check what is available for them to do in response. I don't think someone would stand still and take the hit, no matter how quick their opponent is; they would be able to react in some way.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Grave

[Kalesh 0]

1. In my personal opinion PKing, or to be more precice PVP, should be a recreational activity such as duels or tournaments. I honestly find it very sad how few players will actually duel one another instead of outright murdering people. We aren't all axe-murderers and wanting to vent frustration I feel should be doable with an honorable fight instead of a no-stops assault. Murder was not Kuradeel's first choice.

2. I would have to say yes. There are many reasons this, not the first of which is that unless this is in place a high level player could pretend to be a nice guy and then just kill a group of four newbies with one AOE. Whether or not this will apply to an orange player is a matter I think should be left to others instead of me.

3. Absolutely, however there are many rulesets for dueling in SAO canon. Accidents during duels are a thing that has happened in the series as far as we have been told, and so I would suggest that during a duel not specifically under the rules of "to the death" should require one party state if their next attack will be a killing attempt whether it's IC or OOC. This includes duels where people can one-hit-kill someone. This gives the other player a chance to surrender because they know they are outmatched.

4. Quests for one, aside from that one quest where killing an NPC is an option and any like it. It makes no sense to me that a quest being taken with a specific purpose should be used as a killing ground. It would be far less restrictive and grant much more interesting scenarios if they have to make it all up themselves. Think of the newbie needing help killing their first field boss! I would also suggest that Events be a no-PK zone. The last thing we need during an event is a group of seven grinches stealing our christmas etc.

5. I feel like oranges and the conditions set on them need to be expanded on a bit more. It's supposed to be extremely punishing in the story. A PKer has to use the labyrinth to ascend or descend or else use a teleport crystal if I recall correct. The safezone limit for shops and stuff is understood, so that's a good sign to me. I really feel like orange should be the hardmode. This might be a bit too extreme, but perhaps Orange players could be required to do a thread to enter a new floor. Like say a PKer is on floor 7 but floor 9 is having a party and they are invited. They then have to churn out a quick thread either with a friend or solo to get there. A full 20 posts might be a bit extreme but this is just a suggestion. To me this just makes sense as realistically UNLESS they use a crystal they would actually need to take time to rise up to a different floor. Think Fallout 4 Survival mode.

Keep in mind 5 is entirely optional stuff and nothing more than musings and unrestrained thoughts.

[Avilon 0]

 

1. What form should PK take? Defend your answer.

At this point, I will admit the damage was already done through pking and while I can’t state the reasoning behind the intent of other players to PK explicitly I will remark that most actions taken are through the means of rivalries. I agree that healthy relationships and IC rivalries are fine but through the act of pking someone without consent your are destroying a character personal creation for one own’s personal purposes. Be it for ‘plot development’ or ‘personal reasons’. Frankly the mechanic of having people in Private threads being eligible to assassinations attempts is fine by me. The issue is when people want to do plot development of the site, through the means of events or boss fights. After reading through the recent pk’s threads I can’t see how this rule isn’t simply used for personal grudge matches and vendetta’s.

Plain and simple, Boss fights need to be regulated in a fashion that allows for people to feel save to engage. For possible boss fights I can even agree with an established group such as laughing coughing jumping in and being allowed to suddenly start killing off any and all people that they are capable of facing. The threads I believe should be PK Enabled or not are a rather short list in my opinion as most people know which individuals have bitterness aimed their way, I think this will make itself obvious by the fact that the only PK’s that have happened were in these boss fight threads where people want to be involved and while they know the risk of the boss they wish to still partake though the sporadicness of warriors in the front line need to be fixed. Personally I’m not a fan of Pking at all as it as a mechanic is too easily abused for personal reasons. I agree that people should be allowed to make NPC’s in any thread even if they are throw away characters in a boss thread that individuals want destroyed as they just lost muse on them. Rules such as allowing people restart where they left off in leveling would make sense. This is a big game and instead of having them rejoin as if they were newbies who were too terrified to to venture fought from the first city is frankly rather silly in my honest opinion, but that is another mechanic for another time as is the AOE comment.

Mechanics: As if I have no issue with people spontaneously murdering a character, but when they are on the same footing and with Sword Artes being as drastic as they are, people are given the ability to single handedly wipe out players without a second thought. I feel that a not regulated pk of another person should have a posting round set up. This means that people can’t keep pulling stunts to murder and flee from a thread as is personally legal right now as displayed by the most recent threads. A post order needs to be established for PK’s that are not mutual and one hit’s should be out of the question giving noe large gap than 40 levels as people should be being equipped with armor that would at least be able to actually protect them and besides people like kirito most of them were the same level and at least needed a few attacks to hit to take down even by bosses.

Finally I believe people should attempt to put a timeline stamp into thread to mark when it is happening as Pking can be abused in the sense of seeing that you were killed later down the line as I frankly have assisted in pointing out. People can have legitimate reasons to kill someone prior to their death as seeing the orange marker is enough of a reason for them to want to restrain someone. This can also help personal plot if they end up managing to get out of control and the like, the normal rule in an open of the person stating their intent to kill the other player should always b e established.

 

2. Should PK be mutually agreed upon when involving two PC's?

My personal feeling about this is one hundred percent yes. Else it will be abused mechanically there is no way of preventing it as people can write anything that legitimizes the kill.

As a member of the site and someone who still wants SAO to act like the real death game it is, I think it shouldn’t be but I think people should have to present in rp a thread of advance planning of why their character would be ready to kill another player. Those characters that are so mentally unstable IC should be prevented by those who they consider friends as that is what a friend would do. They would keep them from making a bad decision if they want to join a boss fight and kill someone it is fine but some players would want to restrain them before they did personal harm hence the use of a post order being locked at the first strike.

3. Should agreement to enter a duel, regardless of location, automatically mean that both duelling players are alright with the potential for PK? Most duels are probably planned for IC reasons as I would never accept a duel IC with my character.

4. What threads should never be allowed to be PK in? Boss threads, Event Threads, and Missions

5. Any other PK relevant information you want to share? NPC players should be used to bolster more loss and character development, maybe we can have players make a rule on alt characters establish a main be it the new one they created or a different one. This will allow for a large variety of people to target if you wish to be a member of laughing coffin or what not and will also bolster the ranks of general players that are open for having emotional back stories with these ‘NPC’ like accounts. 

As the 'cannon' concept always seems to be a focus for these arguments one can add changes like I have stated and it would still allow for that sense of realism and although some people do like to keep their alts secrets it will allow people to realize why the other person appeared to stop if they actually have like twelve characters. Maybe even allow for group NPC's where multiple people can play them to help get them strong and that are obviously able to become cannon fodder at a moments notice.

I don't always agree with some of Takao's comments but I do believe that his rules can also be established into this concept that I am offering.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Avilon

[Grave 0]

I hope no one minds me posting this here, because I really feel like agreeing with Kalesh on a few things, rather than editing my post XD

Yes, Quests and Events, and maybe even Raids for that matter should be technical 'safe zones' against killing, because as Kalesh said, what newbie wants to die while trying to break a rock?

And I really like the idea of 'Hardmode' orange, having to do a thread before making a post on a different floor to the one you're currently in. Of course ongoing threads on other floors can still be replied to, but to make or join a thread on something other than their current floor, a thread should be done. Methinks that for these threads maybe minimum 10 posts would be nice, because I personally know it's tedious to pump out only 10 on my own >.> 

[Hakai 0]

I really like Takao's idea, as it makes it so that you dont have to ask, and the player killing in that thread is still not a certainty, giving it a bit of risk which might make it more exciting.

However, I believe that pking should be non-consensual the majority of time, except for in threads such as the boss fight or other special events like that unless the player gives their permission. Never once in the show do we see a player being killed by another player in these events. At least, this was my idea, but the more I think about it, the more I like Takao's idea.

[Baldur 0]

1. What form should PK take? Defend your answer.

I have a couple of thoughts I'll spell out here. In every other PBP Forum RP I've been on, PKing was required to have the consent of the other player because you were destroying a lot of hard work. Unfortunately this also meant that unless a player was retiring, no one ever died. I think that SAO is unique in that the imminent threat of death is part of what makes the setting so interesting. If there is not threat of death, then we shouldn't even have damage and just go pure free-form. So a middle ground should be found.

A) I like Tak's idea that a thread can be flagged. I think we should say that by default (unflagged) threads no NK (No Kill) threads, just so we don't make really long titles.

B) Orange players are players who have attacked another player, but this is supposed to wear off over time, unless you become Red, which is a permanent setting. (If my memory serves me right).

We USED to do it so that PVP had to be permission based, unless you were an orange player, in which case anyone could attack you at any time. I kinda like this plan.So if Orange players could only take part in KE (Kill Enabled) threads until they completed a certain number (it wears off) or complete the redemption quest. That way there exists some risk and danger for being around orange players and EVERY thread won't be be a NK thread, but you'll know which ones to be leery of.

2. Should PK be mutually agreed upon when involving two PC's?

Except for with certain circumstances, yes. If we don't go with the thread tag idea, then yes. With the possible exception of going back to how we used to handle orange players.

3. Should agreement to enter a duel, regardless of location, automatically mean that both duelling players are alright with the potential for PK?

Yes, of course; except in the case of some kind of an event/tournament

4. What threads should never be allowed to be PK in?

Safe Zone threads. This should also be designated. I believe boss rooms typically have safe zones out front of them as well, so boss meetings, leading up to running into the room, should be designated as safe zones, allowing everyone to enter the thread and buff up in safety. Also, this would mean that even with the tag, orange players can't participate in boss raids. To me, this tracks logically. Why would you have someone that couldn't be trusted in a boss raid fight? They murdered another human being. 

5. Any other PK relevant information you want to share?

Ultimately, the reason we're having such an issue is (as others have pointed out) our combat system currently has a numbers problem. We're one shotting mobs that drop loot. We're one shotting front line players. HP obviously needs an upward adjustment to catch up to damage. With the exception of maybe a backstab with the highest multiplier, you shouldn't be able to one shot a frontliner. You shouldn't even be able to one shot someone of an equal level. We should buff HP up quite a bit so that it encourages actual fights to happen.

That would also mean revamping the energy system as well, because currently you can get 1-3 attacks out before running out of energy.

If you apply this concept to all the recent PvP/PK incidents, they would all have not worked out the way they did (with the exception of Dom murdering new players). This would change the entire dynamic, and allow attacked players to flee. We could have our proverbial cake and eat it too. 

Edited May 26, 2016 by Baldur

[Rain 0]

1. What form should PK take?
   I'm actually somewhat fine with the whole PK others ordeal. My only problem with it is that there's no way to mitigate the damage done from the PKing. (See #5) I also don't like how they just blatantly killed without giving the one being PKed time to react or anything. There should be more (obvious) killing intent that's RPed before the actual kill. (see more in #5) On another note, I really think PKing an NPC is a great alternative to PKing if they want to build it for character development or just RP purposes. Drama's nice and all, but once it gets out of hand, it just becomes a nuisance.

2. Should PK be mutually agreed upon when involving two PC's?
   To a point, yes.

3. Should agreement to enter a duel, regardless of location, automatically mean that both duelling players are alright with the potential for PK?
   No, no one should die in a safe zone. Outside, maybe. The last one standing shouldn't get an orange status for it though.. It's a dual. That means there's definite mutual consent. Inside safezone, however, no one should die. That way we can avoid sleep killing in the safe zones.

4. What threads should never be allowed to be PK in?
   I really like Takao's idea of making sure there's a NK or KE tag in threads. That way, PPs and OPs can vary. Of   course, people who enter KE threads should know that they're complying to the fact that this thread is has killing enabled.

5. Any other PK relevant information you want to share?
   PKing should be somewhat mutual RP-wise. I really see no point in just blatantly killing someone in the forums without giving them a chance to react. That's stupid. There should be killing intent towards the target already. I would say a couple of posts before the kill is made. It'd make for nice RP and the two have a chance to maybe talk things out or atleast, the one being PKed has a chance to defend themselves. I've seen people's builds. Some are glass cannons. They can kill, but they can get killed just as easily.

   Now, to mitigate the PK of actual player made characters, the player should be allowed to make a new character somewhat close to the last character's level. How about, in intervals of 5, would be the benchmark. So, say you got PKed at level 69. You can make a new character at starting at level 65. If you got PKed at 71 or 72, you can make a new character that starts at 70. 

Edited May 26, 2016 by Rain

[Mack 0]

Good input so far everyone. I am keeping an eye on this. I've not read everything yet, but I will, I've skimmed bits and pieces though. Thank you for keeping things civil and continue offering input.

To give everyone some idea of timeline, I plan to take the input offered between now and Friday or Saturday and to draft a set of rules for PK with the input of the other staff over the weekend. When the Staff are happy with the rules, they will be placed in another OOC thread for everyone to see and offer input on to to look for loopholes.

More eyes are better than fewer eyes.

Is this all going to get done as quickly as we might like, no.

But, this seems the best way of going about it. It's time we worked together, as a community, to solve problems.

[Baldur 0]

1 hour ago, Mack said:

When the Staff are happy with the rules, they will be placed in another OOC thread for everyone to see and offer input on to to look for loopholes.

More eyes are better than fewer eyes.

But, this seems the best way of going about it. It's time we worked together, as a community, to solve problems.

This may be the best thing to come out of this whole debacle. :)

[Nikodemus_Blackwood 1]

Before I begin to add my two cents and suggestions as they are ones I have been debating, I agree with the stated suggestions as Takao has mentioned, and some of mine may reflect similar to his. The Idea of using NPC only PKs is one idea I have set aside as a solution to this issue. Also have I thought of the similar idea of marking threads with some kind of new tag item to show if PKing is allowed in the thread or not. This would allow people to simply have the power to protect themselves in their own threads, as well as allow for people who want to feel safe to do so in any thread they join.

Also, sorry for the wall of text.

Now, for my actual suggestions:

1. What form should PK take? Defend your answer.

Aside from the above mentioned agreement with Takao, I would like to put forward the idea of making a sub-forum for PK posts. Much like Beggining Floors and Intermediate Floors this thread would be a PK only version of those floors that would be the only acceptable place for PKing allowed. That way those who wish to have that potential challenge or "thrill" can do so in a place designed for that purpose. Those who do not wish to do so, can safely post in the other floors without fear of harm. 

Of course, there are cons to this. The first one being that it would be require more effort on all parties, Players and Staff, to ensure that those rules are being followed and that it of course can be mitigated via the post tag option listed above. But this is an option that can be considered and may help alleviate any issues with PKing.

2. Should PK be mutually agreed upon when involving two PC's?

Yes. If one player wishes to attempt a PK, then it should be duel style. Intent should be made known between both parties. This way it will ensure only those willing to risk their characters are doing so, and anyone else who does not wish to lose their character will not.

3. Should agreement to enter a duel, regardless of location, automatically mean that both duelling players are alright with the potential for PK?

Yes. There is always the risk of death during a duel. We have Over Radiation in the Arena for that purpose, but in the instance that someone does just enough damage, then the person can potentially die. It should be the same in the instance of a Duel ANYWHERE that is agreed upon. but the only the players who agree upont he duel should be at risk, no others. Spectators or other players in a thread where a duel is being held between other players should never be at risk.

4. What threads should never be allowed to be PK in?

If we do not go by the aforementioned items of either having a thread tag that denotes whether PKing is ok or not, or we do not have a seperate forum for threads for PKs? Simple. Any thread that is created by a player other than the PKer and Boss Raids.

To the first part: If I start a thread, whether PP or OP, I should be the only person who can denote whether PKing is acceptable. No other players should enter with intent to PK. This would of course need to be in tandem with the the tags mentioned by Takao. It would allow for players to be protected. As for Boss Raids, Pking in a Boss raid should not be allowed under any circumstance. The whole point of a boss raid is for the players to finish the game and escape. Any frontliner should be aware of this, and want nothing more than to escape.

If we take the argument of allowing Pk to continue in order to protect cannon, then in cannon, PKers were mainly involved with Laughing Coffin, and no one on the front lines under any circumstances was allowed to, and would never, PK for any reason. It was commonly accepted duties of all frontliners to protect their friends and complete the game, not just randomly kill one another. So, one way or the other, Boss raids should be PK free.

5. Any other PK relevant information you want to share?

Aside form the already stated views by Takao for either making PK an NPC only item, or creating a sub forum or tags for threads to allow PKing, while freeing others from it if they wish, I can only think to mention that PKing has been an issue, as stated by many, and is tearing the site apart. Since the newest iteration, very few threads have been created and many have been either busy watching this issue unfold, or to afraid to participate in anything lest they risk themselves. Even when Mack asked for a halt on PKs outside of the boss thread, the issue remained, and happened again. I am not bandying about accusations or such. Those issues have happened and are being dealt with. The main issue is that this issue must come to a close. 

As many have voiced, I too feel that if no corrective action can be taken to fix the rules for PK that satisfy everyone, then it needs to be abolished. As I stated above, to protect cannon, we must protect the players. While this is an emulaton of SAO, that is it. There is no Kirito, No Asuna, No Cline or Agil. We are the characters, the players in this world, and we should feel free and safe to play the game without risk of loss unless we agree to such a risk openly and vocally, not via a general "If you enter this thread, your automatically agreeing to be open game for Pkers."

[Hunie 0]

I maybe repeating a lot of what has already been said, apologies for that. Unfortunately, at this very point, I don't have the time to read the responses because I'm in the middle of exam month. :) That being said, I'm sure a lot of people have sentiments similar to mine and that's a good thing, because I sincerely hope these rules get implemented very soon.

• 1. What form should PK take? Defend your answer.
  Since PKing was a part of the original series, it shouldn't be banned. It IS a part of character building and sometimes conducting such stories with an NPC, is not nearly enough to feed one's need for dramatics in a story. Killing NPCs means RPing as the NPC and choosing what their reaction is, which defeats the purpose of RPing and makes it just story-telling. BUT... See question 2. 

• 2. Should PK be mutually agreed upon when involving two PC's?
  ABSOLUTELY. If this is solely for character development, which is the only time I see PKing to be something that makes sense, it HAS to be consensual, otherwise the point is lost. One has to be able to RP their intent and then their actions. Even in an assassination, I would assume, to take full advantage of the perks of RPing, one would write out their plan, prior to executing it. Obviously, the victim might change his post in response to that 'planning' which then becomes meta-gaming... and has it's own complications... To avoid all this, I believe it's easier to just plot it out. Whether its a PP (because I don't believe we should encourage mistrust in players, by allowing OOC manipulation of people to make them join a thread only to assassinate them in it.) or an OP,  PKing should be consensual, or at least there should be a warning PRIOR to entering a thread that PKing might happen in the course of the story in the thread. The easiest way this can be done is to probably change the tag of the title. 

• 3. Should agreement to enter a duel, regardless of location, automatically mean that both duelling players are alright with the potential for PK?
  Wouldn't that defeat the point of safe-zones? I won't answer much for this, because I haven't been in a duel yet and I'm not sure what the mechanics are. 

• 4. What threads should never be allowed to be PK in?
  Any threads which has any participants unaware that a PKing might take place. 

• 5. Any other PK relevant information you want to share?
  I have shared this idea before, I believe we should have a system that allows for fraction of SP salvage for dead characters. This is just to give seasoned RPers a small leg-up for a fresh start. Occasionally due to sorry circumstances players die in boss threads, while obviously they can't return as the same character, they shouldn't feel compelled to leave the site altogether, since this IS an RP site primarily, not an actual game. Besides every other game one plays for fun allows for a respawn... an SP salvage system would be the SAO equivalent. (I don't think any of us would willingly play a game like SAO IRL xD) I think it is likely that sometimes people might get bored of their characters and want a fresh start but may not want to repeat all the grinding that goes with it. Then they are stuck in a limbo, where they aren't RPing their current character as much and nor are they creating a fresh one for fear of the time it'll consume, I don't see why we can't allow for people to have themselves killed by someone... This encourages healthy mutually agreed upon PKing, it gives the victim a fresh start and gives PKers the dramatic murder posts they might want. 

[Ratatosk 0]

1. What form should PK take? Defend your answer.

Let's be realistic here, PK'ing did happen quite a lot in SAO, so no, it shouldn't be removed. However, I see the possibility of it happening for no RP reason at all. As all the people above me have said, PK'ing does help with character development and etc, for example, Zel died. What did that result in? A "New Age" as some call it, but the change in other characters was visible, look at Kiru, Manta, and all the other Azure Brigade members. If PK'ing was gone entirely, we wouldn't see such dramatic change in characters. Unpredictability is what makes roleplay so fun (At least for some), but unpredictability to the point where you can get killed anytime is just dumb. I am an example of that as I was almost killed, and yes, he could've killed me but chose not to. Do you see how easy it is for people to die in SAO? One decision of a higher leveled player could mean the death of your character (And lost time from your life). So let's keep it canon (But not too canon) because SAO was one big drama storm.

2. Should PK be mutually agreed upon when involving two PC's?

No means no, consent is a must. That way, nobody can kill somebody else just because of OOC or IC drama. Characters should be allowed to say or do whatever they'd like without fearing death because death by saying, "Your mum sucks" is utterly stupid.

3. Should agreement to enter a duel, regardless of location, automatically mean that both duelling players are alright with the potential for PK?

Conditions for the duel should be agreed upon in PM or through means of RP.

4. What threads should never be allowed to be PK in?

Floor bosses (Opal, Oikawa, and Teayre) , events, open parties, quests, sub-dungeons,  I can literally see about a thousand ways for you to kill people in any type of thread.

List:

Some jerk front liner can join an OP full of noobs and rofl stomp them with his AoE's while the noobs are left defenseless (Happened with Dom)

Floor boss assassination (Zel, Dom, Ebony, Macradon, Manta)

Quest Murder

Private Party murder/assassination

Event mass murder

Some jerk front liner kills you in a thread for OOC reasons only or cause they felt like it

For the sake of this reply, I'll only be putting these methods above

5. Any other PK relevant information you want to share?

Nah

 

[Kiru 0]

1. What form should PK take? Defend your answer.

I don't really know what kind of answer we're supposed to put here but I feel like anyone should be able to PK (green or orange.) Of course if you're a level 3 trying to hit a level 60 don't cry when then strike back and kill you.

2. Should PK be mutually agreed upon when involving two PC's?

Ok here's the thing,in the real SAO obviously you have no control over whether you get killed or not, and I think it should be like that. But I also think that (Zel) someone who's spent a substantial amount of time on a character shouldn't just be able to die. However, that is the beauty of a PK, you don't really know when or where it's going to happen, plus it affects a lot of people. Take Kiru and Zelrius for example, if you read up on any threads you'll see how much just one thing can change a story line; and by Zelrius (and Dom) dying just like that really upset Kiru, giving her a boost to start a new chapter. While at the same time it made me, the writer, not want to write anymore. Even though there are still wonderful people on this site that I would miss dearly, having someone who I've known since my first week here just die made me just stop writing. I don't think there was a reason for me to, I think I just got bored but, back to my point. It can CHANGE a character. 

I think that it should be at least discussed between the two because it IS a character that you've made, but you would not need consent to go through with your actions. Of course, if I think of PKing it's for character development. I always ask if I even can shove the player, (I asked Zelrius when he was still here.) I plan out actions with Oikawa and have back ups just in case the plot changes, because quite frankly it does a lot. 

So to conclude, no, PK is PK and we should keep it close to canon.

3. Should agreement to enter a duel, regardless of location, automatically mean that both duelling players are alright with the potential for PK?

Yes, of course if you enter a total loss duel you know what you're doing. If you would like to avoid that, press decline or change the rules for the duel. 

4. What threads should never be allowed to be PK in?

I'd like to say Boss threads and threads which stay (the ENTIRE time) inside a safezone. However, in (virtual) reality we can't make rules like that, only safezone threads and towns should keep PKers out. 

5. Any other PK relevant information you want to share?

If you PK for the first time it should dissolve after a week. PKing a PKer should still result in a green crystal. (or else I'd be orange lol) 

[Hakai 0]

Pking is temporarily banned, but I see a lot of people using Takaos system with the NK. However, this brings up a good question. Is an orange player afforded that protection in an NK thread? This question was brought to mind by Oikawas recent thread.

@Takao

[Ariel - The Crowned Lion 0]

I don't really know why you ask Takao but I'll reply...

 

PK TEMPORARY BAN APPLIES INDISCRIMINATELY.

 

 

uses all the cool stuff to make it stand out

so yeah, that means you are not allowed to kill a player with a journal, not even a orange one. Hope that clears any doubts.

 

 

Please continue and enjoy this pk rules discussion.
Ariel OUT! drops mic like Obama

Spoiler

 

[Hakai 0]

@Ariel - The Crowned Lion I already knew that and addressed it in my post. My question was for Takao and his system.