sao Death Reimbursement (We Seriously Need It)

[Ratatosk 0]

This question has been asked like 50 times already, and we still don't get an answer. Basically, this is Cilla's thread but posted as a new question to get more attention. If you've looked at past activity (Deaths of Manta, Ebony, Macradon, Zelrius, and Dom) you'd realize that we're down about five front-liners and five valuable members of the site. How long did it take for all of them to get their SP? About a year. How did they die? Because someone decided they should. That's a year of their life wasted just because someone decided they could kill them, and what does making them create a new character with only 1 SP accomplish? I know for some, they'll react like that angry German kid and never return.

This isn't only about the frontliners who had their character's killed, I feel as if the main reason people quite this site is loss of interest, but we can talk about that in another thread.

[Rain 0]

^ I actually had an idea for a reimbursement up in the PK discussion. Unfortunately overlooked. :c

[Hakai 0]

Im an experienced role player, and Ive been on a lot of sites. 3/4 of these sites have had a system for this, whether called "death reimbursement" or "scooping". 

The effects of a system like this are wholly positive. People do threads more often, they arent afraid to fight IC. A system like this unites the community and makes a roleplay site more appealing as well as rewarding those who stick around at the same time.

Also, this is an important issue, it needs more attention. 

[Macradon 0]

When did I die? D:

[Hakai 0]

Macradons death was reverted due to him not being in the actual battle. (He was kidnapped by naked men, dont ask him what they did, im sure it was traumatizing) @Ratatosk

[Nikodemus_Blackwood 1]

Yes. I think a harvest system needs to be implemented. Something that lets us A. Regain some of our items/SP/whatever if our chars die and we're forced to re-roll, also we should be allowed to keep the same username and just make a new journal or have a change name option. and B. it should be implemented so that we get a 1 time re-skill if we wish. it returns ALL SP put towards 1 skill and we can re-skill it.

[Rain 0]

1 minute ago, Nikodemus_Blackwood said:

Yes. I think a harvest system needs to be implemented. Something that lets us A. Regain some of our items/SP/whatever if our chars die and we're forced to re-roll, also we should be allowed to keep the same username and just make a new journal or have a change name option. and B. it should be implemented so that we get a 1 time re-skill if we wish. it returns ALL SP put towards 1 skill and we can re-skill it.

I don't think it should be that much. Just giving back a bunch of lost SP would be enough. in SAO when you die, you die. So this reimbursed character would technically be a different character.

My proposal would just be reimbursing SP lost and that's it. We can use level benchmarks so people know what level they start on. My idea is in intervals of 5. So...

If you die you die at Level 54 then you can make a new character at level 50, while if you die at level 55 or even 56, you can make a new character at level 55.

The only thing given back to you is the SP lost. (Again this is a new character, so items should be lost.) 

[Jazmyne 0]

Kinda late reply but...

Nah. This sounds more like an idea for ALO or GGO. If you take risks and get killed, you're dead. It was how it worked in SAO and that's how it should stay. You should be okay with being PKed no matter how hard you've worked on a character the moment you register. A new character should have to work hard just like all the newbies do, that goes for SP and equipment.

[Nikodemus_Blackwood 1]

The main issue most of us have @Jazmyne is that number 1. if we die, we lose a lot of time and hard work on our ends. For some of us forum is an escape from our humdrum lives. When a lot of us make these characters, they are what we would be like in a world like SAO. So when some of us put a lot of time and effort into this and lose that character because of something silly like a bad RNG roll made by a computer and not our own luck, or we die because someone is essentially meta-gaming secretly and has made sure to prepare themselves accordingly so they can do so, then it sucks. Because of this, we have lost many good players. Some may have returned secretly under alts and have hidden among us, but others have just up and left because of it, and that hurts us. The second issue is that when someone dies, whether they are level 13, or level 30, they have to start back at 0, and in doing so, it leaves them at such a huge level gap deficit. For anyone coming in so late in the SAO-RPG run, they are at a soar disadvantage due to being under leveled, not able to participate in past boss threads to level up and be on the front lines, and have a disadvantage to other perks like good boss drops and so on.

 

Due to this, that is why many wish for some sore of reimbursement system so that we don't start at such a bad deficit. I have been on this site since March and it has been an uphill battle to get to level 25 as I am, and even at that I am still a bit behind for participating in Boss threads without being at major risk of death. I had to grind quests and RPs until last month when Mack announced the mini-boss threads for us. That has been a godsend to low level players, but once you hit 25, your still at a bit of a disadvantage because your still behind a good 70% of the Frontliners in Level, skill, and equipment/inventory. To this end, Mack and staff have graciously been working to fix this as mentioned, but it does take time, and the further up in floors we get, the worse that gap will climb and the more need for low level boss events, then after floor 21 and higher, intermediate boss level events will become apparent. But if we nip it now and find a way to assist players in getting back on track, and we're not saying give back ALL the SP or even half of it. more like 10% if that. Just enough to ensure that players don't leave in hate and frustration because of a mechanic that is only around due to canon, and as has been noticed with recent events like the PK rulings and such, we are coming to a point where it will most likely be needed to move a bit further from canon on some things.

 

The death reimbursement isn't allowing people to come back from the dead, it is a semi-incentive for current players to continue with a new character by giving them the chance to come in at a slightly higher level than 1 so they can resume activity and not be so far behind the front lines again.

[Jazmyne 0]

Eh, my mind hasn't been changed. Yet. Especially considering the "NK" and "KE" option that players now have. I know how devastating and annoying it is to have a player killed seeing as more than one of mine have died on other RP sites and such, but I always went back due to the site because I loved the community and RPing in general. Yes, I know it's an escape and yes I know people get attached to their characters. I already have so many times after all. But that's the risk you take with SAO, which makes everything so exciting.

I suppose if rules were made that I actually liked I wouldn't oppose against them, the 10% thing isn't all that bad but I still think that a new character (with an old player) should have to work at least a little hard to get back to their level. Rain's proposed "die at 56 and start at 55" is pretty ridiculous, plus makes no sense story-wise. The only thing, I believe for now, that should be given to the new character is equipment. Maybe their main weapon or a helpful piece of armor. 

What I like the most is buying levels. Say you use MATs and COL combined to buy a new character and starting level. Like 30,000 COL for starting at Level 10 or something.

[Rain 0]

I only thought of that cause It'd make sense if the story is constantly progressing.. I honestly don't like how everyone starts out at lvl 1 when a bunch are already in the nth floor. Doesn't make any sense story-wise. Why would there be new players coming in at whatever floor? (Also don't think new players should start at 1, but that's just me.) that's partially why I proposed the whole make a character at levels somewhat below you were last from...

[Hakai 0]

@Jazmyne The reason that wouldn't work very well is that, for the most part, equiomentbis very easy to get. I could make a new character, do 1 thread, and have enough for a piece of perfect equipment. When a character dies the real loss they experience is their character and all of the development that character has had, and their SP. When a character dies, the person writing them loses a more than stats. For one thing they lose their equipment, which isnt such a big deal unless they have demonic items. But they also lose the entire story that theyve built around their character and have to start from scratch. Thats enough of a loss imo. However, I feel like my opinion on that isnt widely shared. Rping is about writing, and SP is given for commitment and dedication to the community. If you stick around and rp, youll get it. Even when a character dies, the person who has put all of that hard work in is still around. In my opinion, SP should be attributed to the writer, not the character. (Although obviously IC they have it) 

Id say give them back all of the SP that theyve earned, excluding quest SP. So if they die, they go through their thread log and only get 1 SP for each quest they did instead of the 3 or 4. Its actually a pretty big penalty, although nothing like the 90% loss you guys are talking about. Which I am strongly opposed to btw. 

I do like Rains suggestion though. And if you dont understand, that isnt a lenient system either. Each level, when you get into the high levels, can be 5 SP or more.  So if you lose five levels that's 25 SP gone.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Hakai

[Baldur 0]

The main purpose of this thread is to retain players who have dedicated (in some cases years) part of their life to making this site successful. If someone goes around killing players, you're not just eliminating the characters, you're also driving players away from the site. I'm only level 25, I'm not terribly far in, but if Baldur were to die, there's no way in hell I'd make another character. Level 1 all over again? No way.

I'd love to start an alt as well, but even then, I have 0 desire to start at level 1 all over again.  It's also kinda silly to think that 2-3 years into being trapped into Aincrad that any character is still level 1. If a character started off at level 10, at least they can hand wave it and say "I was being super cautious, just doing enough to get by." When we talk about character harvesting, it's not like they're getting a super powerful character. They're still losing HUGE amounts of time and effort, but we're more likely to keep the player around (very import to maintaining the health of a site.)

Again, this is a system designed to retain players. Because so far everyone that's had their mains PKed, has left the site. Not only is that a lot of players, but that's a lot of -dedicated- players.

[Vectis 0]

You know, people don't react to a problem until it's right in front of their face. We need to take action now, and make Aincrad great again. What are the recent losses again?

Teayre

Manta Gaul

Ebony (Who is also Manta)

That's 3 dedicated players, and now they're dead (And probably quit the site) cause I mean really, listen to Baldur. If you were level 40+, would you make a character all the way from level 1?

[Hunie 0]

It'd be nice to see a salvage system being implemented. Although it is true that a person's character means more than just a bunch of SP, but as a community we do need to give them something, to help retain them. Plus, I think this would also make plotted kills something more exciting. Not to mention, occasionally its the opposite, people get bored of their character, despite it being high level and just stop RPing with it a reimbursement/salvage system gives them an opportunity to restart with a decent leg up (maybe we could make it 5-7 levels lost no matter what, just to make it fairer?). And that's ok, its better to have active engaged RPers, that bored reluctant ones. Also, if someone gets their character killed, its a bonus plot point for those who want to play murderers, this would actually help the idea of consensual PK, in my head (since with the current rules, that's mostly the only way of securing a kill anyways.) Actually with a salvage and perhaps a justice system, we may even be able to rework the SAO PK rules a little more, to make them less stringent. Currently in my opinion, a good way to go about fixing these issues is to create a justice system (some sort of IC penalties for crimes), then work on a salvage system and then we can relook at the PK rules. Thoughts? 

[Rain 0]

5 hours ago, Vectis said:

You know, people don't react to a problem until it's right in front of their face. We need to take action now, and make Aincrad great again. What are the recent losses again?

Teayre

Manta Gaul

Ebony (Who is also Manta)

That's 3 dedicated players, and now they're dead (And probably quit the site) cause I mean really, listen to Baldur. If you were level 40+, would you make a character all the way from level 1?

Tea's actually still alive. Both were put in a temporary ban from the site. But it looks like that's over with. I saw manta online for a bit recently.

[Baldur 0]

My understanding is that this is being discussed by the staff, but that it has taken a back seat to the complete guide overhaul that they're working on, thus the temporary PvP rules. They are not meant, as far as I know, to be the final ones.

but yes, we need some sort of salvage system.

[Takneil 0]

Teayre's Character got ruled as to never had been killed. and Manta/Ebony were the same person OOC, both of which were killed because of a 'smile'. In my opinion, if Teayre was was allowed to live, why couldn't at least one of Manta's. Or why wasn't there something given to the person who actually lost years of work?, on two characters. Someone who remained so faithful to site only to get slapped on the wrist for dying?. I would also like to point out Manta was the one that fought for Teayre to live after she went back in time and killed her, staff had ruled her death as a yes. (hence why it appeared that way in last months newsletter.) I'm going to break this down simpler and easier to get an idea as to why this doesn't make sense.

-Teayre attempts to kill Macradon, Ebony, and Manta, let's be honest. No reason was given, and after the dispute was settle. She disappeared, as if she wanted to kill a few people before leaving site. [That's how it seems to me, opinion. Take it as you will.]

-Successfully kills Ebony and Manta. So, why were boss raids never safe from PKing in the first place?. You think after what Opal and Oikawa did that would have been a flashing lightbulb in staff's eyes. but apparently they have some good shades...and why didn't it take effect immediately? like past rulings? that right there is kind of screwy :/ 

-Macradon was out of range because of ape men so he was instantly saved. Let's be honest...again, If you really, really wanted to kill someone. You would have found a way, like I don't know. Taking a couple steps forward? :/ I mean he was chained or some shiz right?. He was all tied up for Teayre to. 

-Teayre also managed to strike the boss?. It really doesn't make logical sense to me as to how someone can strike a Boss then two other players with an AoE as I assume the Boss or the players were not up in her grill or remotely close to one another IC. 

-After all is said and done it makes more logical sense for Teayre to kill over a smile, a Healer. Who had aided her many times in previous boss raids, while Manta or AKA 'Scarlet' had an altered appearance so none would have recognized her as Manta. Rather than void the deaths as they were not truly committed for IC reasons. (please keep in mind there was no warning that Manta or Ebony was being attacked, Teayre just went for their throats. Not giving them a chance to respond. Something that really needs to be fixed =-=. I'm going to go on a rant here, but for a site who really despise's godmodding you really sure do love allowing it. what's the point of preventing one person saying 'I killed you' when someone else just does it?. You wake up one morning to find the only OCs you have on a site you love dead, and you are helpless to do anything. When you speak up you get called out for being unaccepting of the fact and to calm down they are only 'fictional characters'. They may be fictional characters, but when you have at least one character for one+ years let alone two. It's hard not to be upset that you can't do a damn thing to stop it, just because suddenly friendly smiles always come off as arrogant and threatening. )

-Manta goes back into a previous thread and kills Teayre, after three days of premeditating after the ruling. Deciding it would be better to point out the flaw by doing it rather than stating it in support tickets and it never getting done. Or 'Back Burner-ed' Be honest, it happens way to much. 

-Staff talk, and Ariel even makes an official announcement that Teayre is dead. Manta, being the mature one. (Remember?, the person who died? Twice? again for less than the lint that is in my pocket?) Fought for that ruling to be changed because it made no sense as it meant her characters would be alive, which was A BIG NONO apparently so they poofed Teayre back to life. 

-THE BANNING! So, Teayre. As a punishment for lack of logic crimes was given a ban. Acceptable. Then they ban Manta...I...didn't know how to respond to that then and I don't know how to respond to that now. I mean, she even spoke up for the person who targeted her for absolutely no reason. Who in amidst all of this was no where to be found, at all.

-The aftermath. Manta is severely broken about this, through all the things I've heard staff say about not wanting player's to leave. They sure are making one hell of a point to push her away, I mean Zero got upset at the results of this and insulted staff. Some unkind words, granted it seemed he was the only one with a functional soul at the time or didn't get tired of hearing the same things over and over then agree. So when Zero was beaten into the ground by 'logic' he had an outburst. Which also resulted in him departing to cool off as well. Something all of us realized and didn't pester him about. (which also resulted in him losing darkness blade because staff for some reason decided to turn a blind eye to 'common sense' two words they love telling me a lot when I attempt to reason with them.) So, being ONE OF the only ones standing up for Manta, the victim. he was kicked from staff, she is struggling with remaining on site with the shred of a character she has left and even with that. She has to put in another two+ years in order to catch up stat wise. But put yourselves in her shoes, two characters. purely roleplayed not for numbers, but for quality and fun. Built the way she wanted it, envisioning an epic scene of death if they were to ever die. or tragically killed by their lover...but in the end. both of them, tossed to the side because smile that was metagamed to be one of arrogance instead of friendly or welcoming. as manta had written it to be. 

-DISCLAIMER, Take this as you will. And the only reason I bring this up now is because it still seems to be a topic to this day, I fully expect a backlash from staff for the words I stated. But this is not out anger, annoyance, spite, or some pitiful excuse for petty revenge. This is just flat out of disappointment, you handled a situation because you feared the backlash of the community and solidified the ruling on top of it. Everything here is formed from Skype conversations, moments where I did my best to comfort Manta in an attempt to keep her from leaving site, trying to debate with Shark about the situation at hand, Lemon, Ariel, Calrex, really anyone I had as a contact. My main issue...is that you are running a Community base forum and are separating yourselves from the community, Yes. of course I understand everything you've done, revamping rules, systems, enhancement, patching gaps and errors. New quests, monthly events, taking the time to read this and other support tickets. But you built your current staff on a foundation of having to lack emotional input, no morals or humanity. Stone Cold rulings, while I completely understand favoritism issues...showing a little compassion for someone who is repeatedly kicked in the dirt is caring. I'm sorry if the words above angered any staff, but this is the truth i was given and understand. Things I've seen myself and have not forgotten, because it hurts. I love this site, and I love Manta as a friend. Someone who I met through this community and have grown immensely attached to, including those of staff. Because I argue all the time doesn't mean I disapprove of you, I disapprove of certain methods. I still see each and everyone as a great player to this community, I just wish that when you actually worked with us. You didn't have to be heartless. As that only hurts both side of the relationship... 

Death Reimbursement: if there is ever any form of this, I would just ask. That Manta receive at least her character's skill points as it would only be fair, and might even possibly help with her struggle with staying...but to be honest it's hard with everything that happened to her. Maybe even effecting her irl life, I can't speak for her there but I sadly doubt it would do much. As right as of now, many player's I have spoken too have called this site becoming more corrupt by the day. Again, even some PSTs. It should make you happy making the individual happy, I don't see why a goal like that couldn't be strived for? 

[Takao 0]

There's this common misconception that staff is corrupt when they do something you don't agree with. That's not necessarily true. Staff didn't benefit from Teayre killing Manta, Ebony, and attempting to kill Macradon. The community didn't benefit from it. In fact, as a result, PKing as a concept was basically ruled null and void to prevent it from happening again until a fair method can be implemented that doesn't screw people over, which is more work for us. Staff not using your idea doesn't mean we're not listening, it means that much like you, we have opinions. Sometimes those opinions differ. We're not sitting in a dark room, rubbing our hands together diabolically, plotting how we can burn the site down. (that's what we want you to think, anyway)

I don't have much to say on the comments regarding AoEs and whatnot because I agree, for the most part. In context it's nonsensical for some of the sword arts to be able to hit 4 opponents when they only have a hit multiplier of 3, or to be able to hit monsters that wouldn't logically be next to each other. But people do need to realize that this is a forum roleplay, and that over-complicating the mechanics distances players from interest. If we force people do to complicated algorithms and keep track of a hundred different things for one post, which results in the player spending 90% of their time doing math instead of roleplaying, then the site will lose a lot of what makes it entertaining. This isn't me saying that we should forego balancing things for the sake of reducing math and whatnot, it's not necessarily comparable. What I am saying is that simplicity is marketable.

Regarding Zero losing Darkness Blade; To my understanding, Zero created the rules for unique skills. He should know them best, right? If he didn't post within the time allocated to plays, which is a rather generous 35-38 days, it should be entirely his fault if he lost it. The unique skill rules don't mention needing a warning before removal either. A player is consenting to the rules when they take on the challenge to acquire a unique skill, so it's their responsibility to ensure that the rules are followed if they want to keep the skill.

Okay so, all that out of the way, we still have the issue of death reimbursement on our hands. The likely scenario here is that players would receive a percentage of their SP total to transfer to their new character. Personally I'm leaning toward 50% lost/retained, but I'd like to hear what other people think too. Keep in mind that death is supposed to be the ultimate punishment for a character, and it shouldn't be taken lightly.

[Rain 0]

16 minutes ago, Takao said:

Okay so, all that out of the way, we still have the issue of death reimbursement on our hands. The likely scenario here is that players would receive a percentage of their SP total to transfer to their new character. Personally I'm leaning toward 50% lost/retained, but I'd like to hear what other people think too. Keep in mind that death is supposed to be the ultimate punishment for a character, and it shouldn't be taken lightly.

Well, I'd really like to see your thoughts if ever you were to lose your current character. Would you think 50% is reasonable? You're one of the highest, if not the highest player (420 blaze it) around. My perspective on this would be surely different from yours where you've put more months of work into your character.

The only reason I suggested a few level behind your character's level before they died is cause usually if the story continues that means there would definitely be a decent amount of people just short of your level.