sao Death Reimbursement (We Seriously Need It)

[Takneil 0]

I never stated 'Staff was corrupt' I stated ' As right as of now, many player's I have spoken too have called this site becoming more corrupt by the day. Again, even some PSTs' I understand that this was not a corrupt action, but you have a lot of player's to convince. My sole issue is the way it was handled, and how the victim of everything was punished for pointing out a flaw. So it would be fixed immediately instead of later. 

As for the Zero situation, I never brought up most of what you argued. I just stated how it happened, and the fact I was told to drop it via skype when I brought up the 'common sense' words I get hit with so often only made me more disapproving of it. (If someone screams in your face several insults and vulgar words, it's 'common sense' that they would be taking a break. Especially if they leave the chat.) and you are right Takao, Zero did make the rules. Hence why he didn't bother making a post because he thought staff would have used that magical 'common sense' they love going on about and see what everyone else got from that situation. 'I'm on break before I quit everything.' and no, there was no need for a warning as it is not stated in rules. BUT a member volunteered to do it in Lowenthal's place, a member who had access to Zero through many different sources. but failed to do it one way and gave up. To me that is suspicious in general and if intentional or not should be punished as it lead to a rather unpleasant outcome. If they didn't say they would do it, I would have no problem with the warning BS but they did. And should be held responsible to that as Lowenthal would have been into hell in back to try and inform Zero rather than just dipping his toes. But hey, again. I guess 'Common Sense' is only applicable to things that don't involve staff. I accept the fact Darkness Blade is no longer in Zero's possession due to the time limit, but I am not accepting of the fact that staff didn't know he was on break. (in which case extensions have been made plenty of times) 

keep in mind this isn't an argument, this is from day 1 to the rulings. Everything that I was told and witnessed myself, along with the defenses I gave for them while being in line with rules a moral stand point. Instead of being heartless and cold, a flaw that needs to be changed in some staff. I'm not saying be happy go lucky and all that exaggerated BS I usually get fought with when I bring that up. No, I mean start looking at things with a certain level of compassion and understanding. Somethings obviously need to stay strict but not everything needs to be hammered into us as that too will only serve to drive away people. 

As for Death Reimbursement, why should the writer be punished for something they had no control of?. Manta joined a raid party, woke the next day and both Manta and Ebony were dead. In scenarios like PvP Full Loss, or PKE thread I would understand as they are basically asking for it. But Her characters were killed, she could do absolutely nothing about it. and get's punished? more than the actual player who started it in the first place?. I'm sorry but Getting punished for something you were not even attempting to take part in, just literally happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time?. I think the loss of a character is enough, let alone two. Especially when the reasoning behind it is a giant slap to the face as there was no previous rivalry between Manta/Ebony and Teayre, it wasn't an honorable death, people say she should have taken the most of it and accepted is plot. How can you turn getting killed over a "smile" into valuable, plot to save everything you've worked so hard on in over two years. Two years of developing characters, with great plot and future plot, only to be killed for OOC reasoning's.yet...Teayre only get's a slap on the wrist. I guess being murdered for no reason stands as being Manta's fault cause she totally decided to have both her characters run into a person's sword.

Death isn't a light punishment? O,o,
-Progress loss
-Motivation brought to 0
-Extremely tempted to quit
-Overwhelming feeling of 'no one gives two shiz'
-Valuable Plot destroyed
-Unable to do anything in the moment, despite in the show it is shown as HP sliding to the damage not instantly being removed, giving plenty time to drink a potion. Yet still unable to do anything.
-Given the last choice, Leave and depart from all the bonds you made on site, or stay and restart everything from zero. 

the Murderer in the situation needs a harsher punishment. because right now, the victim is the one who is bearing all the lashes while the PKer can just walk off and do whatever. Maybe even do another raid! why? because she's surely never going to do that again so let's allow her to be in another boss fight as we OOC know she can no longer hurt us as we are protected by the magical NK rule (conveniently ruled to take place AFTER the underlying incident).    

[Hunie 0]

Takneil, I empathize with a lot of your concerns. At that point bringing Manta and Ebony back, would be grounds to bring Ssendom and Zelrius back as well (which I'm all for, yay mass resurrection, seriously can we just do that? xD) but I don't think given the rules we had then, the murders broke any (loopholes galore xD), in both cases the matter must have been discussed and came to the same unfortunate conclusion. Should we as a community have worked harder and faster to fix things before more murders took place, probably, for whatever reason, the site was thrown into turmoil and we didn't quite rise as well to the occasion and Manta and Ebony were lost as well. But finally this thing is getting all the attention and there is work going on about how to balance the mechanic. The current rules prevent the god-moding you mentioned Tak and they'll probably stay put till everything else is fixed. I wasn't PST when all this went down and I don't know about Zero's outburst or details about the unique, so I'm not going to talk about that. 

My thoughts is that 50% is a little punishing, especially when above everything we're an RP site and death is supposed to be very punishing on the real SAO game, but here, it would discourage people from coming back. Simple math would say, 2 years of work and you only get 1/2 back... 1 year of work lost. I would suggest more along 75% but other things would need to be worked out as well. Unfortunately any uniques and items and all would be lost still... I think that's fair, because... that particular character died... That's my take on reimbursement. For harsher punishment, I'm personally working on a justice system for IC infractions (and it is decently harsh for murderers). Others have also suggested some brilliant new innovative ideas for retribution for OOC matters as well, its undergoing staff scrutiny and I'm pretty sure it'll be put up here for further vote and scrutiny. 

Does this help? At least a little @Takneil
That's my take on the balance @Takao. 

[Raun 0]

28 minutes ago, Takneil said:

the Murderer in the situation needs a harsher punishment. because right now, the victim is the one who is bearing all the lashes while the PKer can just walk off and do whatever. Maybe even do another raid! why? because she's surely never going to do that again so let's allow her to be in another boss fight as we OOC know she can no longer hurt us as we are protected by the magical NK rule (conveniently ruled to take place AFTER the underlying incident).    

^^That! I too have been wondering about the nature and timing of the implementation of the new PK rules. Absolute protection to everyone (including the murderers) and no incentive at all to those who are dead (despite it not being their fault at all).

All the murders have been due to OOC reasons. We can try to hide that all we want, but everyone knows the truth. And that is REALLY not a sign of a healthy community. Keep OOC disagreements out of IC actions. That is 'common sense' if you ask me.

Anyway, now the entire community seems to agree on reimbursement and I believe it's only a matter of 'how much should they get' rather than 'should they get it back at all.' So, that's improvement; late, but better late than never.

And Takniel, I didn't see you have such strong feelings against PK after the death of Zel/Dom. Maybe if we had spoken as a community back then, this wouldn't have happened to Manta.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Raun

[Takneil 0]

@Raun I will admit I did have some issues with Zel, but Dom was good in my book. but the reason why I didn't have such an issue was because it was premeditated, Opal had been planning their deaths for almost a year if not more. And there was even a previous thread were Opal slipped Oikawa a potion, why I'm so heated about this is because there was no premeditation to this murder. It was uncalled for and rather targeted on one player as People seem to forget Manta and Ebony are the same person IRL and the fact she was basically beaten into submission and silence only infuriates me more. When stuff that is unfair, insensitive, and frustrating. I am one of the first some people talk to, because I'm not afraid to call out BS and I know Staff hates me as it is so it's easier to put that on me rather on the people who lean on me. 

[Rain 0]

Base on an audience perspective, I was still new to the site when Dom and Zel were killed off. From what I noticed, people were more on an uproar on the fact that it happened. It's like they forgot that this SAO is a death game. People were never really considered taking matters into their own hands until another set of PKing happened with manta's characters. 

[Raun 0]

@Takneil I hear you. But firstly, let's not villainize our dear staff. This isn't their job. Whatever they do, they do it because they want to. And I'm pretty sure they don't want the site to lose its dedicated player base. Yes, I don't agree with some of their decisions myself; but I still believe they did whatever they did with the site's best interests in mind. We, as the player base, should voice our opinion and work with the staff to make it a better place. Let's not discourage them by speculating whether they are corrupt or playing God.

I hear the staff are working on this issue. However, like Hunie said, resurrecting people now will just be complicated and silly. We need a justice system and a reimbursement for those who died. Hopefully, they will get implemented soon and the people who left the site will be interested in coming back. At the end of the day, roleplaying is about having fun. If it is going to induce stress and depression, it really isn't worth it. The ultimate goal is to create such an environment.

All that said, the one-hit player killing really needs to be stunted.

Also, a tangent: Aren't potions supposed to work only for that thread? If Opal gave the potion to Oikawa in a previous thread, then it shouldn't be affecting her in the thread she murdered. I'm asking just for clarification because I'm an alchemist and if I had a way to create an enslaving potion and make someone my slave for the rest of their life, I would totally do it. :P

Edited June 24, 2016 by Raun

[Takneil 0]

A. Teayre was resurrected far after her confirmed death. B. Again!, I never personally said staff were corrupt. the people who come to me do, and I'm not villainizing staff at all. It'd be daft for me not to assume that after the UR thing they didn't. And the reason I fight these things so hard is because I'm looking for logical answers, not cryptic or simple put. 'This is how it is, deal with it.' I mean Instead of dealing with me from the start during the my UR stunt I was tip toed around and ignored by most staff, and when it looked as if I was being silenced I was let on to look like a fool rather than approach me via PM. And then Erron even led me on, toyed with me. claiming he didn't know who 'deleted' the status's and even went as far to villainize me in main chat. I'm sorry, but when you have an outraged member you don't play around with them to see how angry you can make them before they 'POP!'. So Corrupt had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make, insensitive?. To be blunt. At some points yes, which is what I want them to acknowledge.  

[Baldur 0]

@Takneil I understand you're upset, but you're derailing the thread. Let's keep this on the topic of death reimbursement.

As far as I can tell, most people seem to be in favor of this. The site's entire guide/system is currently being reviewed, and I have submitted math to the staff that will prevent players from being able to one-shot each other in most situations.

If we can't be productive and stay on topic, then staff are going to lock this thread.

In regards to Death Reimbursement, I'd be fine with:

Players lose all Quest/Event SP. (this is because they can easily go back and do the quests again, they're all short, easy, and good for building up the new character's identity)

They start with level*200 Col, and their (new) level in mats. I'd say that they also start with a full (3 piece) set of rare gear for whatever tier they're in.

[Takneil 0]

@Baldur Apologies, I was simply answering things I was questioned/challenged about. My intention was not to derail the topic. So, I'll just state my reason for being here. If a death reimbursement system would be created I would ask it to be offered to not only Manta/Ebony but also others who have died in the past, I personally disprove of the 50% SP returned as it still seems like a harsh punishment for dying :/ as I read earlier I would be accepting of what was stated. SP is earned by the writer, not the Character as it was OOC that you worked so hard to earn that SP, so all that are not rewarded from quests would be transferred to your new character OR and existing alt. With saying my two cents I'll leave.

[Ratatosk 0]

I side with @Takneil on this one.

The amount of logic that is seemingly not present in the combat system is real, remember tha incident when  this one guy's AoE hit not only two boars, but two players? One of which wasn't even in range? How the [censored] does that happen?

No, how the [censored] did the staff let that happen?

But as @Baldur said, we should get back on topic.

All SP should be retained excluding quest and event xp (As he said). And Takneil brought out a lot of good points, a lot of dedicated players seemingly vanish once their characters die. It's ridiculous to think about it, one day you're off strolling about, then the next second you die. What are you gonna do after that? Make a new character? At level 0, absolutely not.

Now let me explain all the various causes of death in a nutshell, and why we need death reimbursement.

Okay, now that's probably not very related to this subject. But anyways, back to topic, when a character dies they go away permanently and they lose all their gear, col, storyline, and every single valuable thing they own. Remember who we're trying to punish here, the characters, not the writers. We lose good members of the community because of things like that (And frontliners), like Zelrius, Ssendom, etc.

I do have a little disagreement about Baldur's idea of death reimbursements, I believe that the new character should not receive col or mats (And gear) as that seems to be stretching it too far. Like quests, you can get mats (And col!) pretty easily.

 

[Baldur 0]

We can't ask a player to jump in at level 15 with only a good quality sword. They'd do so little damage They wouldn't have enough energy to kill things that drop mats

[Rain 0]

But it does let them give some start to their new character.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Rain

[XWuZHeAR 0]

Ok so I personally voted no originally for this death thing but after I thought about it a litte bit it does seem like losing frontliners is not only damaging to the site but also slowing us down in clearing these floors. Because no doubt we all want to get the Hell out of here RP wise but also IC wise So that... Hopefully ggo takes off and we all start from zero and compete in the BoB but nether the less... So that we can continue on this story and see the fruition of all our individual storylines granted the Role player's story many change with deaths here and there but still isn't it really the end to goal to make some characters get to that Ruby castle and punch Kayaba directly in the face? or end it the *other Spoiler way*... But I guess we can vote on that later but I really think well go for all hundred since my vote for a time skip didn't take off... Anyways the point is the Role Player behind the character should be glad to stay a part of this community after death So that we don't lose some of these great writers that ive seen come to this site especially at the hand of people who continuously look for loop holes in the rules in order to PK them.

[Ssendom 0]

Hah... Should I elaborate on my opinions over this entire ordeal? (Since I'm the one being spoken about?)

[Baldur 0]

12 hours ago, Ssendom said:

Hah... Should I elaborate on my opinions over this entire ordeal? (Since I'm the one being spoken about?)

Only if your opinion is how a death reimbursement system would work.

[Ssendom 0]

5 hours ago, Baldur said:

Only if your opinion is how a death reimbursement system would work.

But of course!

[Shark 0]

Staff is discussing this. I think we need a way to bring the newer players up to speed with levels so they don't feel left behind instead of looking to give longer players some SP from their characters that had died. I Proposed that we give the longer players 25% of their current SP at MAX and more to the newer players. With that, we will gain more players instead of causing them to turn away because the level difference.

[Baldur 0]

9 hours ago, Shark said:

Staff is discussing this. I think we need a way to bring the newer players up to speed with levels so they don't feel left behind instead of looking to give longer players some SP from their characters that had died. I Proposed that we give the longer players 25% of their current SP at MAX and more to the newer players. With that, we will gain more players instead of causing them to turn away because the level difference.

I think both of those are important. I'd probably suggest starting new players off around level 10, that should give them enough SP to spend to feel like they have a character. Then give a dying player some of their SP on top of what a new character starts at, and that might be reasonable. I'd have to look at our example cases and see where that means their characters would start.

[Lowenthal 0]

Here's my idea:

1. New players start with 10SP. Enough to get 2 skills at rank 1 (armor and weapon)

2. Players that die retain 30% of their total retained SP.

This way, players that start aren't insta murdered. (though they should still start with some non-com quests) And those who are higher leveled aren't forced from 200+SP down to 5. 

[Ratatosk 0]

@Shark

The differences in levels discouraged me to continue roleplaying on this site, I do believe that speeding up the leveling process would greatly help us gain more players. Maybe we could give new players a +1 SP bonus to all their threads until they reach a certain threshold? I know the monthly bosses won't help cause those take forever to finish, so how about adding some new quests for everyone to take? Ones that are relatively easy, ones for the newbies to finish.