Weapon Class Fix [Daggers]

[Opal 0]

Since the last thread continued to get derailed from where I was going at, Im gonna start a fresh thread for the information we need to gather to fix weapon classes by individual weapon. I am tagging @Mack and @Life since they are our resident GMs. You guys dont need to weigh in unless you wish, this will be a community effort to help revitalize weapons on an individual level and hopefully revamp, fix and balance weapons so they don't just act like every other weapon just with a different 'skin' 

This topic will only be used to discuss Individual Weapons. If you wish to discuss cool downs of other abilities or sword arts of a particular weapon, create a different thread. So back to Daggers and what we have so far.

Dagger: Used mostly by rogue style characters, In other games the weapon can be concealed easily, great for stealth and assassination. Mechanically works well with crit and fast paced characters. High combo attacks but normally does very little dmg compared to larger weapons. However, higher chance of critical and lets not forget a free attack with Surprise Attack which is basically our Back Stab Ability. 

Unique Trait Ideas:
 

- A Passive Ability that allows the Player to roll again if they miss the first time. [Once per Thread]

OR

-A Passive ability that add +1 to Acc or +1 EVA during defending Player's turn. 

OR

-Free Bleed/Poison mechanic: A Critical Strike will automatically apply bleed/poison to the Mob without the need of an enhancement to do so. 

OR

-Extra Attacks used per a Cooldown Timer system instead EN Based Sword Arts

 

Base Damage [Suggested Ideas]: 1, [+1 Per Weapon Rank]

Neo Sword Arts [Suggested Ideas]: 

Unique/Personal Sword Art: Kinda like a Character's Limit Break/Noble Phantasm ect [ We can discuss this at length after we finish up the problem areas as this would be an Add-On rather than a fix.]

Suggested Idea for Unique Sword Art: Unlocked at GM, And Evaluated by Staff/ GM.

---

When I had suggested Unique Trait ideas on this Dagger, I meant only 1 unique trait given to it. The Dagger would not have all of the above, they are just suggested ideas that would work with this weapon class. Dagger uses, please weigh in your opinions as what you would like to see changed about this weapon class. Once we finish up Daggers, hopefully Mack and Life will take a peek at this thread and help get this new form rolled out. Of course, depending on how we do dmg for weapons we might wanna just stick with Unique Traits for Weapon Classes and talk about Dmg and Sword arts in another thread. 

Edited June 11, 2016 by Opal

[Seul 1]

Salt. :P

Of all those options though I like the increased crit rate most.

[Nikodemus_Blackwood 1]

I too like the crit rate increase the most.

[Khrysaor 0]

All of them are good ideas for the dagger, but I think I would go with either the crit rate increase, or the bleed/poison mechanic.

[Mack 0]

(Stashing my notes and thoughts throughout in this format)

Dagger: Used mostly by rogue style characters, in other games the weapon can be concealed easily, great for stealth and assassination. Mechanically works well with crit and fast paced characters. High combo attacks but normally does very little dmg compared to larger weapons. However, higher chance of critical and lets not forget a free attack with Surprise Attack which is basically our Back Stab Ability. 

Unique Trait Ideas:
- Each Rank of the Weapon Class gives the wielder access to better chances at critical attacks. Must be NATURAL Rolls. (I don't mind the increased Crit. Cap, but I would personally veto a weapon with a Crit. Hit Base on 40% of the possible rolls.)
Rank 1: 10 BD
Rank 2: 9-10 BD
Rank 3: 9-10 BD
Rank 4: 8-10 BD
Rank 5: 7-10 BD

OR

- A Passive Ability that allows the Player to roll again if they miss the first time. [Once per Thread] (I like this idea, but as a Skill Mod. for Dagger Users.)

OR

-A Passive ability that add +1 to Acc or +1 EVA during defending Player's turn. (Either/or, but not both. One of the systems I'd played with for differentiation was fiddling with Accuracy bonuses or penalties, depending on weapon.)

OR

-Free Bleed/Poison mechanic: A Critical Strike will automatically apply bleed/poison to the Mob without the need of an enhancement to do so. (Against NPC's only, ok. For PVP, not so much.)

(Have you considered a speed bonus? Perhaps a Dagger-User would get to make 3 attacks for every 2 made by the mob/opposing player. Dagger, and Rapier, are both speed conscious weapons. This would potentially balance out with a total lack of AoE and Stun, basically trading power and crowd control for pure speed.)

Base Damage [Suggested Ideas]: 1, [+1 Per Weapon Rank until 5th Rank which gives +2 Dmg] (If you want to use the speed idea, this needs to remain at +1 for each rank. Tying in speed [bonus attacks] with increased power would potentially OP the Dagger.)

Neo Sword Arts [Suggested Ideas]: 

Unique/Personal Sword Art: Kinda like a Character's Limit Break/Noble Phantasm ect [ We can discuss this at length after we finish up the problem areas as this would be an Add-On rather than a fix.] (I do like this idea, perhaps drawing up three potential choices weapon-specific mods. Each one would do something different, and cost an SP cost to purchase, but a player could only have ONE of them per weapon.)

Suggested Idea for Unique Sword Art: Unlocked at GM, And Evaluated by Staff/ GM.

--- (See what I said above about the Unique/Personal Sword Art.)

When I had suggested Unique Trait ideas on this Dagger, I meant only 1 unique trait given to it. The Dagger would not have all of the above, they are just suggested ideas that would work with this weapon class. Dagger uses, please weigh in your opinions as what you would like to see changed about this weapon class. Once we finish up Daggers, hopefully Mack (Already did) and Life will take a peek at this thread and help get this new form rolled out (If this is rolled out, it will be when ALL of the weapons are done. To roll it out piecemeal would be to give an unfair advantage [if only short term] to the players that already had access to the update.). Of course, depending on how we do dmg for weapons we might wanna just stick with Unique Traits for Weapon Classes and talk about Dmg and Sword arts in another thread. 

(Sidebar: Comments not directly related to this topic will be deleted from this thread. Do not thread jack this conversation. The Eye of Sauron is watching.)

[Rain 0]

Aaahhh! That's what you meant... I thought they got all those abilities..I was like woah... I guess we can go that far for each. ._. Anywho...

Quote

- Each Rank of the Weapon Class gives the wielder access to better chances at critical attacks. Must be NATURAL Rolls. 
Rank 1: 10 BD
Rank 2: 9-10 BD
Rank 3: 9-10 BD
Rank 4: 8-10 BD
Rank 5: 7-10 BD

OR

- A Passive Ability that allows the Player to roll again if they miss the first time. [Once per Thread]

OR

-A Passive ability that add +1 to Acc or +1 EVA during defending Player's turn. 

OR

-Free Bleed/Poison mechanic: A Critical Strike will automatically apply bleed/poison to the Mob without the need of an enhancement to do so. 

I still don't think an easy crit would be fine. I still like having them work for crit. Given the choices, I would take the +1 ACC and +1 EVA passively. (Daggers users are usually nimble) but maybe we could add another option to the table. Here's an idea for another ability I want you guys to consider.

Hidden Blade - with every landed attack the player has a chance to landed a second attack. (A natural CD 11+ would be required to land the second attack. It can never crit.)

[Nikodemus_Blackwood 1]

With the Increased crit chance, people seem to be thinking in terms of the crit atk is increasing. That is not the case. Also, as was mentioned in the original thread, the weapons would possibly have a new base DMG. So for a dagger, it would be lower, and when ranking it up, the crit chance would be normal. so at rank 1, it's the normal table with half the roll providing a +1, and the other half +2. This wouldn't change, atleast I dont think it would.

 

Instead it just gives the user a better chance to get more base dmg. Also, we do plan on later looking at SAs and such, so that we can adjust them accordingly. You do have to realize that other weapons we do will be adjusted also, and would most likely outclass Daggers in terms of DMG base, and DMG with modifiers. So it may look kind of "WOAH HOLY JEEBUS THATS TO OP!" but I am sure we could find a way to adjust other weapons to balance this out.

 

For a second vote of yes, I'd say the next best item to be added to daggers if the crit chance is vetoed, then I'd cast my vote for  - A Passive Ability that allows the Player to roll again if they miss the first time. [Once per Thread]. It allows a once per thread bonus that would be fitting because in all truth, if you swing a dagger and miss on the first swing, you would bring it back along it's original path for a second attempted strike. So this can be easily worked in and would fit well IMO.

[Ratatosk 0]

Oh no, not the dagger master race...

[Rain 0]

Well... to be honest, I kinda wanted the increasing crit chance on raipers... That's kinda why I want to stay away from the same exact thing on daggers. :p

[Life 0]

Rapiers were known in the cannon for their high crit rate, and daggers for their speed. While the current SA system may not be perfect, it works in a way that was meant to be built for the system put in place upon their release. Daggers have high damage because they lack in stun/aoe. There isn't really a way to work the speed theme into our current system, though lower cool downs on sword arts would seem the way to go in a cannon sense. Making dagger more like wild dance might curb its power if it really is seen to be a problem. There are many ways sword arts can be balanced but with what we have currently its just a matter of numbers. Will need more thought though, for now i'd like to see how the discussion unfolds.

[Rain 0]

Perhaps we could add a system where some weapons could get a second attack in after a certain amount of posts to somewhat portray attack speed... so a dagger can have a second attack every third post, while a two handed weapon after six attack posts? thoughts?

Then we could zero in on just the roll again on a missed attack and increased ACC and/or EVA trait for the dagger. That's if we follow the thought of daggers being known for speed. Or we could add cooldowns. I remember somewhere some mentioned cooldowns also (in another thread.)

[Opal 0]

Making Daggers a speed class weapon and Rapier more crit is a viable choice. Mack suggested extra attacks, but I think that should be limited as well as to not be OP. If we use a cooldown timer instead of EN, then extra attacks might be a more viable solution for the Special Trait of a dagger class. 

[Rain 0]

3 minutes ago, Opal said:

If we use a cooldown timer instead of EN, then extra attacks might be a more viable solution for the Special Trait of a dagger class. 

I don't think we should outright get rid of EN. It has it's uses. Why not have both? EN and CD (cooldown)?

[Grave 0]

Mainly because 1. It's tedious and annoying to waste energy, meaning you have to wait to do anything and 2. It's non-canon. Yes, we have a few non-canon elements on-site, but EN is something that can be removed without too much trouble if we all work together.

Also, when's this group PM gonna get started? :P

[Life 0]

Extra attacks isn't viable as we run off an energy system.

[Opal 0]

41 minutes ago, Life said:

Extra attacks isn't viable as we run off an energy system.

That was the point I was trying to make. We would need to switch Sword Arts from Energy Based attacks to Cool Down timers instead. But thats a different answer to a different question than what we have going on now which the point of this thread was to give Daggers amongst the other weapon classes a special trait so they are not all doing and acting as the same thing as one another. 

So my suggestion is; we put in "Extra Attacks" as a maybe for the Dagger Class, and in case the system stays Energy Based, then we use a different/back up trait instead. 

Then in that case, we have "extra attacks" as a maybe and something more universal as the suggested in the first post. Since you guys wish to make Rapiers more crit based attacks, that leaves:

- A Passive Ability that allows the Player to roll again if they miss the first time. [Once per Thread] [Mack approved of such a thing in his response. As a GM this might be a good offering for Dagger users.]

OR

-A Passive ability that add +1 to Acc or +1 EVA during defending Player's turn.  [One choice, maybe the player can decide?]

OR

-Free Bleed/Poison mechanic: A Critical Strike will automatically apply bleed/poison to the Mob without the need of an enhancement to do so. [Macks uggested great use for PvE, but poor for PvP. It would depend on the amount of DoT. Would it be greater than the normal enhancement or the same?]

Hidden Blade - with every landed attack the player has a chance to landed a second attack. (A natural CD 11+ would be required to land the second attack. It can never crit.)  [Suggested by Rain] 

1 hour ago, Grave said:

Mainly because 1. It's tedious and annoying to waste energy, meaning you have to wait to do anything and 2. It's non-canon. Yes, we have a few non-canon elements on-site, but EN is something that can be removed without too much trouble if we all work together.

Also, when's this group PM gonna get started? :P

Instead of making it a PM, it's better to give the entire community a chance to weigh in their ideas. Just because they dont use a Dagger does not mean they can weigh in on their ideas. 

Edited June 10, 2016 by Opal

[Rain 0]

13 minutes ago, Opal said:

"great use for PvE, but poor for PvP."

This just gave me an idea. Instead of having to pick one specific trait, why not give the player options to choose from. Say, 3 traits to choose from. What they choose is what they'll stick to for the remainder of their PC's life. It can add more variety between players and can give them options to either be focusing on PVP or focus on PVE. It can also defeat the whole deciding on choosing one concrete trait for each weapon and vastly add variety to weapons and their designs.

Seeing as these have been somewhat agreed upon. We can set these as the traits for daggers for now, till a later date if we can come up with better ideas.

Quote

- A Passive Ability that allows the Player to roll again if they miss the first time. [Once per Thread] [Mack approved of such a thing in his response. As a GM this might be a good offering for Dagger users.]

OR

-A Passive ability that add +1 to Acc or +1 EVA during defending Player's turn.  [One choice, maybe the player can decide?]

OR

-Free Bleed/Poison mechanic: A Critical Strike will automatically apply bleed/poison to the Mob without the need of an enhancement to do so. [Macks uggested great use for PvE, but poor for PvP. It would depend on the amount of DoT. Would it be greater than the normal enhancement or the same?]

Thoughts?

Edited June 10, 2016 by Rain

[Opal 0]

I would assume the player gets to pick the trait as soon as they pick their weapon class? As a Mod for the Dagger? Or they get to chose when they GM their weapon? I like the idea of variety and I actually would have no problem with that as you say it would add more diversity to the dagger users. -thumbs up-

[Rain 0]

3 hours ago, Opal said:

I would assume the player gets to pick the trait as soon as they pick their weapon class? As a Mod for the Dagger? Or they get to chose when they GM their weapon? I like the idea of variety and I actually would have no problem with that as you say it would add more diversity to the dagger users. -thumbs up-

I was actually thinking giving it to them right away as soon as they pick a weapon, but having them choose when they GM the weapon is also interesting. Helps them with their GM thread and also makes GMing a weapon more rewarding. As a mod, that I'm not so sure of, but that's just my opinion.

[Grave 0]

Maybe give them one choice when they put their first rank into a weapon, then they can pick a second from the list at GM.