Weapon Class Fix [Daggers]

[Rain 0]

On 6/11/2016 at 8:46 AM, Grave said:

Maybe give them one choice when they put their first rank into a weapon, then they can pick a second from the list at GM.

That could work, too. I'm fine with the idea. Now what of the others?

Anyways, If no one else has anything to say, I think we've just about covered what we need. Everyone seems to agree that the crit bonus should go to rapiers so let's discuss that a later time. Let's put it to vote on the traits and lets move on to the next weapon or work on the SA themselves for daggers.

A) Base of damage 1?   Aye

B) Ability to choose traits?    Aye, more variety

C) These three optional traits are agreed upon?   More or less... Aye. I'm just not entirely sure on the free bleed/poison mechanic.

Quote

- A Passive Ability that allows the Player to roll again if they miss the first time. [Once per Thread] 

OR

-A Passive ability that add +1 to Acc or +1 EVA during defending Player's turn.  [One choice, maybe the player can decide?]

OR

-Free Bleed/Poison mechanic: A Critical Strike will automatically apply bleed/poison to the Mob without the need of an enhancement to do so. [Macks uggested great use for PvE, but poor for PvP. It would depend on the amount of DoT. Would it be greater than the normal enhancement or the same?

D) Should GM give a +2?    Nay, I believe we should keep the base damage  at a minimal. We can balance out the damage by fitting in more attacks to the SA.

E) A trait can be chosen upon Rank 1 of the weapon skill?   I'm 50/50 on this one. I kind of lean more to giving them the trait at GM.

F) A trait is unlocked when unlocking GM?    Honestly.. aye. It would feel like unlocking GM would be more rewarding.

G) Traits as a mod? Nay I just don't like having to spend more SP on something that should be given freely from hardwork.

 

If I missed anything lemme know. If anyone has anymore input fireaway, if not, voice your opinions and let's move on.

PS - I believe we should wait on the talk of how to use CD and EN as a whole when we're done with atleast the basis of the weapons.

[Grave 0]

A) Base of damage 1? Yeah, dagger = tiny weapon = tiny base damage.

B) Ability to choose traits? Yes, would keep people from being sheep and having a weapon that acts almost the same as someone else's.

C) These three optional traits are agreed upon? Yes, but maybe more options could be given if we have any bright ideas.

D) Should GM give a +2? For dagger, no. Minimum damage with higher attacks rate. Spears could likely be given this.

E) A trait can be chosen upon Rank 1 of the weapon skill? Since I suggested one chosen at Rank 1 and one on GM, my answer is yes.

F) A trait is unlocked when unlocking GM? See above.

G) Traits as a mod? No. The traits simply add a little more uniqueness to a weapon, SP could be better used on other things.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Grave

[Opal 0]

Some other possible Trait ideas:

Quick Hit: Don't need to roll for attack, but the damage is halved and non mitigatable [OP?]

Lucky Hit: The dagger uses its full dmg capability and passes through all mitigation [once per thread]

Series of Strikes: This kind of works with the extra attacks, Two Attack Actions per thread. Can combo 2 sword arts with one another. 

Other suggestions would be cool. The above I agree with also. Once we flesh out the other weapons, we can hone in on working with Energy and Cool Downs.

 

[Rain 0]

4 minutes ago, Opal said:

Some other possible Trait ideas:

Quick Hit: Don't need to roll for attack, but the damage is halved and non mitigatable [OP?]

Lucky Hit: The dagger uses its full dmg capability and passes through all mitigation [once per thread]

Series of Strikes: This kind of works with the extra attacks, Two Attack Actions per thread. Can combo 2 sword arts with one another. 

Quick hit sounds like another free hit like the surprise attack mod, but without counter-play like the surprise attack mod having to be hidden for an entire round. Being that it's has no CD (for now) we could say that's spammable. I'd say OP. unless we take out the non mitigatable part of it.

Lucky Hit sounds hella interesting. Kinda like an All in kind of thing. idk... I like it as is.

Series of Strikes sounds very similar to what Infinite Spears is suppose to be (from what I heard anyways). This might be problematic seeing as it's somewhat copies a unique skill.

Speaking of unique skill. I just realized, we're forgetting to include unique skills. Without the knowledge of the newer ones, we might be copying those skills. :x

Here's my list what I dug up. Weather, they're true or not, I'm not entirely sure, but yeah. Let's try to avoid these. :3

Spoiler

Dual Blades
Zelrius (former)
No skill info - Use two weapons? (guess)
Blade of Micheal; Blade of Lucifer

[II] Holy Sword
Heathcliff
No skill info
No weapon info

[III] Berserker
Ssendom (former)
Regenerates ⅕ rounded down of damage done to your own health after mitigation.
Gram

[IV] Battojustu
Teayre (former)
If you roll a 9 or 10 the user will automatically AOE without extra cost. This range can be rolled into but not out of.
Muramasa

[V] Shadowed Path
Lowenthal (Former)| Hikoru (Current)
Gain no hate unless on a critical hit (roll of a 9 or 10); can run from battle w/o having to roll, and enter stealth.
Yamikiba (?)

[VI] Darkness Blade
Zero
Bypasses half of the mitigation rounded down on all rolls. At rank 5 bypasses half of mitigation on non-critical rolls and all mitigation on critical rolls. Bypasses Parry, Block and Achilles
No weapon info

[VII] Achilles
Tristan Delaney (former) | Calrex (current)
Passively halve damage received after mitigation and deflect damage based on rank back. Damage returned is 20% * rank tier. The damage return can be mitigated. Indirect damage such as bleed and thorns completely ignore Achilles.
No weapon info

[VIII] Infinite Spear
No owner
let's you stack Sword Arts up to five times.
No weapon info

[IX] Duelist
No owner
reduces energy cost for SAs by half
No weapon info

[X] Ravager
No owner
applies a percentage of damage before mitigation as bleed.
No weapon info

[XI] Inquisitor
No owner
makes the person immune to status effects and gives them a bunch of gear/abilities.
No weapon info

 

[Mack 0]

14 hours ago, Opal said:

Some other possible Trait ideas:

Quick Hit: Don't need to roll for attack, but the damage is halved and non mitigatable [OP?]

Lucky Hit: The dagger uses its full dmg capability and passes through all mitigation [once per thread]

Series of Strikes: This kind of works with the extra attacks, Two Attack Actions per thread. Can combo 2 sword arts with one another. 

Other suggestions would be cool. The above I agree with also. Once we flesh out the other weapons, we can hone in on working with Energy and Cool Downs.

 

1. Fully Non-MIT-able would be OP. I propose "Fully non-MIT if attacking from Stealth, half-mit otherwise."

2. Lucky Hit: Only usable on a BD of 9-10 and LD 17+, but usable on every such roll against Mobs and up to twice per fight on players. You'd need to be lucky to get that roll.

3. I've already suggested a Mod for daggers that would up their attack speed. I propose 4 attacks for every 3 from another one handed weapon (excluding daggers) and 3 attacks for every 2 from a two-handed weapon. The extra attacks would be handled as bonus chances to attack every 4th or 3rd turn, respectively, and each attack would require its own BD.

Personally, I'm in favor of doing away with the Energy System completely and going to # of Post based Cool Down Timers across the board. But, that's me and it would require a complete overhaul of the system to change it.

[Kalesh 0]

14 hours ago, Mack said:

1. Fully Non-MIT-able would be OP. I propose "Fully non-MIT if attacking from Stealth, half-mit otherwise."

2. Lucky Hit: Only usable on a BD of 9-10 and LD 17+, but usable on every such roll against Mobs and up to twice per fight on players. You'd need to be lucky to get that roll.

3. I've already suggested a Mod for daggers that would up their attack speed. I propose 4 attacks for every 3 from another one handed weapon (excluding daggers) and 3 attacks for every 2 from a two-handed weapon. The extra attacks would be handled as bonus chances to attack every 4th or 3rd turn, respectively, and each attack would require its own BD.

Personally, I'm in favor of doing away with the Energy System completely and going to # of Post based Cool Down Timers across the board. But, that's me and it would require a complete overhaul of the system to change it.

Looking at your closing point I would be entirely in agreement with that. Not to distract from the  conversation, but the energy system just doesn't particularly work with a lot of other things we have going. Like the health pools being the size that they are. In most scenarios including PvP a battle ends in one, maybe two turns if someone has charge or the like. Wild Claw is kinda gimped by the energy system, so I won't pretend I am not slightly biased. It's the weakest weapon type with the least utility bar none, martial arts included. The only advantage it has is its energy costs when it manages a critical hit, which isn't even an inherent trait but one that is unlocked, and as I just mentioned doesn't hold much impact compared to just using a greatsword/axe instead. If battles could be long and drawn out, then the energy system would be a-ok though.

BACK ON TOPIC THO:

1. That could be interesting, but it seems pretty OP still unless players have to respect the LD during their combat roll to attack. Some monsters should have LD boosts as well just for these situations. Once you pass LD 21+ to detect, no natural LD rolls will ever find the stealth user, which seems fair since you are a grandmaster.

2. That could be cool, but would it be a natural LD roll or one with Search & Detect included? I'd be cool with that, since dagger users/rogues/bandits tend to be somewhat luck-stat based for treasure hunting and the like in games I've played.

3. A turn-based speed suggestion sounds awesome to me, and while it would require a rehaul I think that would be just fine by me. As earlier mentioned the energy system placed next to the HP and mitigation most player/monsters have is a little redundant.

[Opal 0]

When I get home from work I will edit my first with the motioned edits of those new traits. And then we'll begin working with sword arts; both EN Based should the system stay the same, as well as Cool Downs should the system be changed. I feel we have enough special traits for the dagger use to move on with the project! Thank you everyone for pitching in your ideas. :)

When working with sword arts, just so we are not overwhelmed; we'll tackle those one rank at a time. :) 

[Opal 0]

RANK 1

Armor Pierce - 1x1 - Stun - (4 Energy) - A standard thrust with the dagger.

Side Bite - 2x1 - (2 Energy) - Two quick forward slashes.

Round Accel - 2x1 - AoE - (4 Energy) - Swing the blade circular, creating small tempests of air.

 

First round of Sword Arts for Rank 1 Dagger are listed above. For the sake of argument as before, we'll need to come up with EN based attacks as well as Cool Downs for these. At the current moment, 3 sword arts in rank one seems like a good starting point. 

Armor Pierce: Sounds like it should be able to do something against armor instead of 'a standard thrust'; doesn't seem to suit the name at all. I like the Stun that comes with it. And we all know stuns have a 3 turn cool down on most things. 

Armor Pierce - 1x1 - Stun - (3 Post Cool Down) - An attack that by passes the player's armor and stuns them upon contact. (With the description change, this will allow players to utilize sword arts in a more unique way rather than causing the player to adapt to the move set of a simple thrust)?
Side Bite - 2x1 - (2 Post Cool Down) - A two toned attack. A bite to the left and right of the dagger user going for a hit at the sides of the body. 
Round Accel - 2x1 - AoE - (3 Post Cool Down) - Swing the blade circular, creating a small tempests of air to slash at all opponents within range. 
Standard Dagger Attack - 1x1 - (No Cool Downs) - A standard Dagger attack, not a sword art, but allows free basic attacks when all other Sword Arts are on Cool Down.

==

Thoughts on these, perhaps power changes, cool down changes? We should keep to a format that is simple for all sword arts.  

[Grave 0]

You are very right about Armor Pierce being... not much of an 'Armor Pierce', so maybe some SAs having a unique ability would be nice, maybe one every two ranks starting at 1, then that way you get one at the mid point, 3, and Grandmaster. But maybe that would clash too much with the Weapon Special Ability stuff and provide too much to focus on.

And I like those cooldowns, maybe it could be hits x damage multiplier for cooldowns, and anything above five is automatically dropped to five, or six if it has Stun or AOE, because having to wait any longer than that, at least at the point we're at, would be an absolute pain. And maybe every twenty floors each rank gains a new SA? Because us GMs already have everything available, when we're still not even a quarter way through the game, while in the SAO universe, there were so many more Sword Skills, but since it's built so there's basically one of each combination of hit x damage, they would only be flavour, so maybe not. Thoughts?

[Rain 0]

6 hours ago, Opal said:

Armor Pierce - 1x1 - Stun - (3 Post Cool Down) - An attack that by passes the player's armor and stuns them upon contact. (With the description change, this will allow players to utilize sword arts in a more unique way rather than causing the player to adapt to the move set of a simple thrust)?
Side Bite - 2x1 - (2 Post Cool Down) - A two toned attack. A bite to the left and right of the dagger user going for a hit at the sides of the body. 
Round Accel - 2x1 - AoE - (3 Post Cool Down) - Swing the blade circular, creating a small tempests of air to slash at all opponents within range. 
Standard Dagger Attack - 1x1 - (No Cool Downs) - A standard Dagger attack, not a sword art, but allows free basic attacks when all other Sword Arts are on Cool Down.

EN = Energy, CD = Cool Down, SA = Sword Art, CC = Crowd Control (i.e. stuns)

If we're to include energy to the mix...

Armor Pierce - 1x1 - Stun - 2 EN + 1 Post CD - An attack that by passes the player's armor and stuns them upon contact. (With the description change, this will allow players to utilize sword arts in a more unique way rather than causing the player to adapt to the move set of a simple thrust)?
Side Bite - 2x1 - 1 EN  + 1 Post CD - A two toned attack. A bite to the left and right of the dagger user going for a hit at the sides of the body. 
Round Accel - 2x1 - AoE - 2 EN + 1 Post CD - Swing the blade circular, creating a small tempests of air to slash at all opponents within range. 
Standard Dagger Attack - 1x1 - No EN; No CD - A standard Dagger attack, not a sword art, but allows free basic attacks when all other Sword Arts are on Cool Down.

I see no point in having to put high CDs on rank 1 SA. Here's my thought on a mix of both Energy and CD. Any CC or AoE SA would definitely have a CD along with it. Since these are low ranking SA, they're not that big. The thought of mixing in EN also gives some unavailability to the skills at lower levels.

Thoughts?

Note: This is also considering Grave's thought of capping CDs to 5 or 6 posts as anymore might start to become a nuisance. For now (rank 1), somewhat low CD and low EN.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Rain

[Grave 0]

Again, energy is something we're seeking to remove if we can find a non-broken way of creating Cooldowns. Energy is a hard enough stat to deal with as it is; it makes you have to wait to use any attack (for example using a high level sword art can deplete your energy to the point where it's difficult to use any others), while Cool Downs mean that no matter how many Sword Arts you use, you will always have some available. Mixing both of them together would be too tedious and confusing.

Also, if no one objects, I'll start compiling the CD Sword Arts in a personal google doc so I can edit it if required and bring it out if we decide Cool Downs are the way to go.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Grave

[Rain 0]

23 minutes ago, Grave said:

It makes you have to wait to use any attack (for example using a high level sword art can deplete your energy to the point where it's difficult to use any others), while Cool Downs mean that no matter how many Sword Arts you use, you will always have some available. Mixing both of them together would be too tedious and confusing.

You do realize that Energy would be more efficient? If we are gonna drop ~5 post CD on higher ranked SA, that would mean we'll need to we're waiting 5 posts. With Energy, we can wait 3 posts then use them again. That's why we should mix the two so it's not so spammable, but still reasonable. 

Also, if you have the energy for it, you can spam more before having to wait 3 posts to regen it all back.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Rain

[Grave 0]

Alright, after going through a few of the SAs, I realized that there are some that obviously use hand-to-hand attacks but don't require Martial Arts, for example Shadow Stitch, which uses two 'roundhouse kicks' (Fun fact, they're actually sweeping kicks on the ground; all of the SAs are based off of the ones from Infinity Moment and Hollow Fragment). Thinking about MA attacks made me realise; they have a requirement for Rank 2 in MA, which isn't everyone's main desire, so I'm thinking that maybe anything that requires MA should have -1 to its Cool Down. Opinions?

2 minutes ago, Rain said:

You do realize that Energy would be more efficient? If we are gonna drop ~5 post CD on higher ranked SA, that would mean we'll need to we're waiting 5 posts. With Energy, we can wait 3 posts then use them again. That's why we should mix the two so it's not so spammable, but still reasonable. 

Also, if you have the energy for it, you can spam more before having to wait 3 posts to regen it all back.

You only have to wait that long for a particular sword art; you can use others while you wait for it to cool down. With energy, you either do nothing for a while and regen energy or attack and use more.

[Rain 0]

That's why I offered a mix of both CD and EN. Not everything has to have EN or CD. We just need to find a nice mix of both.

[Grave 0]

I guess we'll see, but I feel having both would mean too much to focus on; keeping track of both your energy and cool downs of various skills would be tough.

[Life 0]

If we are going to change SA's then it would be into a cooldown system. As for the proposed changes so far. I cannot really see them fitting in. This is a basic sword art not a unique of some kind. The only thing i see as a viable change is lowering the damage and less energy like with wild dance. 

The idea was that daggers are high damaging single target sword art that hits a lot of times due to its speed. Which is why it lacks aoe and strong stuns.

As for the suggestion about cooldowns. I have already a few prototypes that may work but nothing for certain yet. And if we do change the sword art system it will be apart of a larger change so that it meshes better with the rest of the system.

[Baldur 0]

15 minutes ago, Life said:

If we are going to change SA's then it would be into a cooldown system. As for the proposed changes so far. I cannot really see them fitting in. This is a basic sword art not a unique of some kind. The only thing i see as a viable change is lowering the damage and less energy like with wild dance. 

The idea was that daggers are high damaging single target sword art that hits a lot of times due to its speed. Which is why it lacks aoe and strong stuns.

As for the suggestion about cooldowns. I have already a few prototypes that may work but nothing for certain yet. And if we do change the sword art system it will be apart of a larger change so that it meshes better with the rest of the system.

Music to my ears :)

[Rain 0]

So... I'm guessing we'll wait for the new system before continuing on this? According to Life, it seems that the new system would be more on CD so guess that scraps my idea on a mix of energy and cd system. 

[Takneil 0]

I do find the thought of Sword Skill Traits to be amusing, when GMing a sword skill anyone can choose 1 of three traits to add to their weapon. it could either be a complicated effect. or something simple. Like for Example... 

One Handed Curved Sword: Rank 5.
---Choose One---

- +1 Crit Damage. (On natural rolls of 9 add +2 Damage to the base damage of your attack, On natural rolls of 10 add +3 damage to the base damage to your attack.) 

- +1 AoE Range. (Changes the Max number of enemies you can strike from 4 to 5 with AoE Sword Arts [Or choose one specific AoE SA.].)

- +1 Nimble Stance (When Attacked with a non critical from your opponent add +1 to your Evasion. Does not stack with itself.)

Of course it doesn't have to be like those but I find the concept of traits to add a bit more variety to sword arts which would be nice.

[Baldur 0]

8 minutes ago, Takneil said:

I do find the thought of Sword Skill Traits to be amusing, when GMing a sword skill anyone can choose 1 of three traits to add to their weapon. it could either be a complicated effect. or something simple. Like for Example... 

One Handed Curved Sword: Rank 5.
---Choose One---

- +1 Crit Damage. (On natural rolls of 9 add +2 Damage to the base damage of your attack, On natural rolls of 10 add +3 damage to the base damage to your attack.) 

- +1 AoE Range. (Changes the Max number of enemies you can strike from 4 to 5 with AoE Sword Arts [Or choose one specific AoE SA.].)

- +1 Nimble Stance (When Attacked with a non critical from your opponent add +1 to your Evasion. Does not stack with itself.)

Of course it doesn't have to be like those but I find the concept of traits to add a bit more variety to sword arts which would be nice.

I actually really like this idea, because it allows for differentiation of characters.