Ideas for Throwing Needles

[Wolfie 0]

So, @Takao told me to post about this here. I have a few Ideas for how throwing weapons could work, seeing as they are available in the anime.

First off, I think that it should be an unlockable skill, have a quest where you have too prove your worth with them. It would be like the "Breaking the Unbreakable" Quest only you would have, for the quest, Unlimited throwing weapons and you would have to beat a designated score in so many throws on a dart board. 

Second, I think that you would have to buy ammo and keep track of it, blacksmiths being able to make them in groups of 5 needles at a time. Each group could have different properties and one person could switch between the properties that they could inflict upon the opponent. 

Third, they would be primarily used for debuffs and the Sword arts may be used to improve accuracy instead of damage. This way they wouldn't be able to be used to kill at a distance, only to create a easier to kill enemy for your party.

Fourth, hitting with a needle would give half the hate of a normal hit, as long as you are in cover. This way you don't have to worry about being targeted.

Fifth, If you roll a one on the battle die, you will have a chance to hit your party members based on your craft die.

Sixth, You have to maintain a minimum of 5 feet and a maximum distance of 20 Feet, your location would need to be stated before the battle had started

These are just Ideas for how they might work, and I would love to hear what others have to say about this idea.

Also should this catch the attention of admins, I do have a good idea for how the quest could go.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Wolfie

[Ariel - The Crowned Lion 0]

I like the idea of doing a quest to gain the throwing knifes, even if in canon is a ramification of the Martial Arts skill. On this matter, I had a suggestion for throwing knifes but its wasn't implemented in the end. I'm leaving it here so that maybe you guys could make it a more 'practical skill' I'd even appreciate if people will give me some Sword arts names and descriptions to fill it. well here it is...

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► Throwing Knifes:

3 Ranks

Passive

Effect: +30 Damage per Rank (consumables) / +1 Damage per Rank (permanent)

Description: Allows the player to use throwing weapons.

• Thrown items cannot be retrieved. They can either be consumable items such as a kunai or ninja stars and even permanent weapon like chackram, boomerang or rope-dart.
• Using the 'Throwing knifes' skill while in stealth does not remove the player from stealth but each hit attempt reduces the player's Stealth Rating by 3.
• Cannot be used with 'Charge' or 'Parry'.
• Consumables with more than 1 basic damage can only be purchased from player merchants or received as quest rewards.
• Throwing a weapon uses a post action, same as slashing with a sword or thrusting with a spear; unless stated otherwise.
• The act of throwing a item has a base energy use of 1;consumables however need extra energy to be thrown.
• Only permanent weapons can use Sword Arts, consumables are simply thrown.

 

Note: To stick close to cannon, one can pick a small item (pebble, fruit, small branch, etc.) from the ground and throw it; However, the item has 1 basic dmg and a post action is needed to pick it up and another one to throw it. However one can pick a small item by following the material gathering table. (you can find and pick on on a ld of 15+)

 

Sword Arts: (summary, will add more skill descriptions)

  Hide contents

 

Throwing Knifes

Rank 1
Single Shot 1x1 -  Starting Sword Art, a horizontal throw from the dominant hand’s side to the front of the player.
Controlled Pair 2x1 – Two throws in rapid succession at the same target. The second one usually lands more accurate than the first.

Double Tap 2x1 & AoE –  

 

Rank 2

Wind Blade - 5x1 & Stun - The weapon is thrown so fast it almost seems to split in two. The first hits the target and looks to pass through. Then the second hits and bounces back. As it does this, the afterimage returns

Phantom Guillotine 3x2 - looking like the target was guillotined in half?

 

Rank 3

Steel Halo - 5x1 & AoE –

Infinity Edge - 7x1 –

(more to be added up to 6-7)

 

 

 

Novice Throwing Knifes Mod
Lucky Shot: Once every 3 post you can throw a knife using a 'crystal action' instead of a post action, being able to still attack. at every 3rd post, one can use the post action and the 'crystal action' to double throw knifes, one roll for each attempt. (12 SP)

 

(Optional, too OP?)Bleeding Shot: On a successful hit applies/resets Tier 1 Bleed (consumable) / On a 9-10 applies/resets weapon's Tier Bleed (permanent item). Tier 1 and Tier 2 Bleed don't stack, the new effects overrides the old one. (15 SP)

 

Journeyman Throwing Knifes Mod
Distraction(cannon mod): Use one consumable to distract the attention of a mob (or a group) with the first attack. Does not deal damage or require the player to roll but consumes a post action. Debuffs the target mor (group) by -1 Evasion for their next two turns. Does not work on players or mid-battle. (9 SP)

 

Expert Throwing Knifes Mod 
Bounce: On a natural critical hit, the throwing weapon bounces once against the nearest object. (15 SP)

• When fighting against a single enemy, the throwing weapon will bounce against the nearest solid item and back against the single target; it deals the same amount of damage in either case, double in total for all cases.
• If a player is fighting multiple enemies and uses a single target SA; when bouncing, the throwing weapon will hit the enemy nearest to the initial target.
• In case of AoE Sword Arts, it doubles the number of hits (and damage) per mob.
• The things above apply to both consumables and permanent throwing weapons.
• Energy consumption stays the same even when this mod is activated (procs) .

 

 

Rules update: At the beginning of each thread, players using this skill need to specify the amount of consumables they have in the battle ready inventory. Any use/trade of consumables must be logged in the 'Transactions' section of the player's journal and at the end of each thread.

 

 

Blacksmith Profession Update: New item category that can be made: Throwing weapon(permanent) - Chackram and similar variations.
Tailor Profession Update: New item category that can be made: Throwing weapon(permanent) - Rope-dart and similar variations.

 

 

Merchant Profession Update: New item for sale->

 

Basic <<Throwing weapons>> (consumables) - A sharp item with an aerodynamic design. Does a basic damage of 15 when thrown. Uses 3 extra Energy to thrown. (ex: Kunai, Shuriken, Small dagger etc.)
Merchant Fee: 100 col
Customer Cost: X

 

Iron <<Throwing weapons>> (consumables) - A sharp item with an aerodynamic design. Does a basic damage of 55 when thrown. Uses 6 extra Energy to thrown. (ex: Kunai, Shuriken, Small dagger etc.)
Merchant Fee: 500 col
Customer Cost: X

 

Steel <<Throwing weapons>> (consumables) - A sharp item with an aerodynamic design. Does a basic damage of 115 when thrown. Uses 12 extra Energy to thrown. (ex: Kunai, Shuriken, Small dagger etc.)
Merchant Fee: 1000 col
Customer Cost: X

 

 

TL;DR -

• cannon skill integration: 1h weapon throwing knife and consumables, different dmgs. consumables need extra energy to be thrown depending on quality.
• permanent weapon SAs with a mod that gives 20% chance to do double damage with SAs for no extra energy cost. (x14 SA max dmg output, x10 AoE, x10 Stun)
• mods...... double knife throw possible in 1 post.
• eva debuff canon mod
• a col dump for consumables in different tiers
• some extra stuff for merchants, tailors and blacksmiths

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*reply to a concern raise in the staff section:

" You can throw 1 per post  and as many as you have in your inventory (for consumables like throwing daggers). As for permanent items (like a chackram) you can use it as a regular weapon. Like a normal weapon, each throwing action requires a post action. And yes they are still affected by mit. "

 

[Shark 0]

Continue to develop the idea and this will be presented to staff.

[Grave 0]

Hm, I don't think they should be completely uncollectable. You should be able to have a chance to retrieve it by using your LD to actively search for it, but only once per consumable. And also, shuriken might not be the best idea, as there is a canonical Unique Skill, Shurikenjutsu which utlizes shuriken instead of throwing needles and knives, and the staff may have that in mind. If they confirm they don't, then I don't see why not :D Otherwise, the ideas both of you have posed are really awesome and I absolutely support!

Oh, and as for the Expert Mod, maybe it could be renamed to Ricochet instead?

Edit: Didn't notice the faint text where Ari stated the collection system D:

Edited November 24, 2016 by Grave

[Bhairyuu 0]

How about this Sword Art for the Throwing Knives. I got it from Naruto the anime, but it's called <<Shadow Shuriken Strike>>. I will leave it up to you guys to decide the final version of this but the basic idea is that one projectile is thrown with the second flying forth under cover of the first, meaning that it would be harder for the target to detect the second one coming even if the first can be seen and evaded. It would give some more dynamics to the RP i think.

[Baldur 0]

Just to temper everyone's ardor a bit, the throwing system should not be more complicated than the normal combat system we have. Throwing weapons are a small part of SAO, and we're not trying to exponentially increase the complexity of the system just to add this one skill. It should fit within the current framework.

I do like the idea of throwing weapons adding status effects, but we also have to consider how that would fit into the system we have and how they would all work together. We've had about 4-5 throwing weapon ideas thrown around, so there's definitely an interest, but it seems the challenge is greater than the answers we've come across so far, so I encourage you all to work together to come up with something simple, elegant, and fun that we can incorporate. 

[Baldur 0]

Quote

Just thought I'd throw this out there, since it came to me all of the sudden.

Here is how you could implement Throwing Weapons as seen in canon.

Normally when you're engaging in combat the turn order goes

Player attacks/charge
Mob attacks
Player attacks
Mob attacks

with throwing weapons, it gives you an opener

Player Throw Attacks
Player Melee Attacks (Can't charge)
Mob attacks
Player Melee Attacks
Mob Attacks

etc...

Basically it would be a useful skill for opening, and an alternative for charge. The damage would have to balanced against charge as well.

Throwing Weapons: 3 Ranks - allows you to use throwing spikes/axes/daggers, whatever fluff weapon you want. These weapons cannot be used for melee sword arts. Throwing weapons do not count as an equipped weapon, but do take up inventory space in the battle ready slot. Without the mod, these can only be stacked up to 5 per slot, and are permanently lost when used.

These would be consumable items made by blacksmiths, perhaps Artisans? 

Rank 1: Weak single target sword art
Rank 2: medium single target stun
Rank 3: weak AoE sword art, medium single target sword art

If a player also has the Martial Arts skill at least at Rank 2, he gains a couple new arts

Rank 3: High-ish damage single target art, and a medium damage AoE art

They also unlock the ability to use a chakram. Like thrown items, this takes up a slot of your battle-ready inventory, but it no longer requires ammo to use.

The throwing items would be statless, since they're not equipped items and instead would use your normal combat stats as if you had  your existing weapon equipped.

Since this prevents the player from using charge, the damage lost needs to be taken into consideration. Charge (1-5) can provide a damage boost of up to 50 on average, and 70 on daggers. Balance this buy it having an extra change to miss, but getting in 2 attacks in one post (Basically).

Thoughts and comments?

This is an idea of mine from a while back

 

[Wolfie 0]

So on the point that @Baldur gave I have been watching this thread. I appreciate all of the imputed given and understand that this needs to still be relatively simple. I am currently attempting a rough draft of the idea that I will post later. As for my reasoning behind pushing, just in case any staff member is curious, the existence of even a weak ranged weapon mechanism in the game will help the forum appeal to more people. It will also make it easier for those who prefer the life of stealth to embrace that life and be able to build a character that would allow them to succeed in being a Rouge type. 

I will be posting a link to a Google Doc with suggestion privileges for everyone here soon. Thank you again for all of your help and support.

[Baldur 0]

And here is Lycan's idea for throwing weapons (it's not quoted for formatting reasons)

Quote

Extra Skill - Throwing
No Ranks
Cost: 10 SP
Description: Removes the post action needed to equip throwing items. Instead, a player can use the item while maintaining their current equipment. Each thrown item is treated as a consumable and costs a post action to use. This only affects thrown items such as potions, knives, darts, shuriken, kunai, etc.

Alright, so instead of throwing knives as a sword art, I think we could work it in as another Extra Skill, like Martial Arts. If you want, you can add a sword art or two to the Dagger weapon that requires the <Throwing> skill. Perhaps extend that to axes as well? Entirely up to someone else if they'd be interested.

However, I propose this as an extra skill for players to utilize a new consumable. We will need new enhancements for these and they will need to be crafted by a blacksmith (knives, needles, daggers, shuriken, kunai, etc), by a tailor (darts), or by alchemists (throwing potions). This will give those professions more business aside form standard equipment that is a "one & done" system.

These enhancements will be:

Quote

Berserk
Cost: 2 Slots
Cap: N/A
Used on: Throwing Weapons
Effect: On a successful BD roll, increases Hate by +3 against one target.

Quote

Thrown Paralyze
Cost: 2 Slots
Cap: N/A
Used on: Throwing Weapons
Effect:  Removed enemy action for 1 turn afterwards on a roll of 9-10 This only applies to natural rolls (unmodified). Removes evasion properties from opponent while paralyzed.

Quote

Thrown Bleed
Cost: 2 Slots
Cap: N/A
Used on: Throwing Weapons
Effect:  Activated on a successful roll of 9-10 with one slot. Deals (12 * Tier Level) of damage for 2 turns for the enemy/mob. This only applies to natural rolls (unmodified). This ignores damage mitigation.

Quote

Thrown Venom
Cost: 2 Slots
Cap: N/A
Used on: Throwing Weapons
Effect:  Activated on a roll of 9-10, deals (6 * Tier Level) poison damage for 4 turns to the enemy/mob. This only applies to natural rolls (unmodified). This damage ignores mitigation.

Quote

Puncture
Cost: 1 Slots
Cap: 2 Slots
Used on: Throwing Weapons
Effect: Activated on rolls of 9+, deals (10*Tier Level) raw damage to a single target. This can be used on Modified Rolls. This damage is affected by mitigation. This damage does not increase hate.

Now, these all require 2 slots. My reasoning behind that is we only want one main perk per thrown blade. The player can add a +1 ACC to the Berserk items, or +1 Savvy/Keen. They can also add +1 Damage should they so choose, but these cannot be chained into sword arts and damage would be mitigated, capping hard damage to extremely low values. The only value that can do hard damage is Puncture, but since it is a thrown item, it requires high accuracy to land. Thus, a 9+ roll after mods is needed. (a 6 Natural Roll + 3 ACC would qualify).

The other reason for the 2 slots is smiths and tailors can utilize more of their uncommon and rare rolls. Plus, players can choose to have these items appraised for Unique enhancements. Since they are consumable, that would be entirely up to them, but may provide merchants with more business as well and create special items to use against bosses or PvP. You could essentially have a Bleed/Blight throwing weapon or similar combination.

On top of all this, thrown items, as well as using normal items, does not incur hate. (Berserk aside). Meaning, healers or backline players can apply DOTs on Crit Rolls given they have the skill and the items necessary.

Thoughts? Changes? Insults?

[Grave 0]

I have news!

So, I've been reading the SAO light novels, and currently I'm in the first Progressivs, and it has some interesting details about the Throwing Knife skill. It's listed as a sub-skill, basically a skill to be used alongside your main weapon, and only really has an effect against monsters (possible debuff against players?). There is no mention of weapons such as rope darts BUT Kirito does receive a chakram from one of the Tauruses on the second floor (later giving it to another character) which requires both the Throwing Knife skill and Martial Arts to utilise, so possibly that could come into play in our system?

Just thought I'd add these tidbits in since it's a surprisingly common topic in Progressive 001

[Baldur 0]

On 12/11/2016 at 9:17 AM, Grave said:

I have news!

So, I've been reading the SAO light novels, and currently I'm in the first Progressivs, and it has some interesting details about the Throwing Knife skill. It's listed as a sub-skill, basically a skill to be used alongside your main weapon, and only really has an effect against monsters (possible debuff against players?). There is no mention of weapons such as rope darts BUT Kirito does receive a chakram from one of the Tauruses on the second floor (later giving it to another character) which requires both the Throwing Knife skill and Martial Arts to utilise, so possibly that could come into play in our system?

Just thought I'd add these tidbits in since it's a surprisingly common topic in Progressive 001

Yes, the way it ties in across all the media is that Throwing skill requires ammo, and you can equip a limited amount. For site purposes, these would take up stacks in your battle-ready inventory (which, by default, stack up to 5 times).

They were required to get Martial Arts in order to use the chakram, which was special, because it didn't require ammo. It was a weapon you equipped and could be used repeatedly.

So if you have the throwing skill, but not martial arts, you're limited to using consumable throwing weapons. If you have martial arts, you can use chakram type weapons that are reusable.

[Grave 0]

Yeah. I feel like having multiple different permanents (eg. ropedarts and chakrams) would make the skill too diverse, so maybe limiting the permanent aspect to chakrams would be more simple.