Timeskip/Floor Jump Poll

[Beat 0]

I missed that it said less than 10, that is my mistake, so i apologize for my lack of understanding there. I had figured it would try to skip to where even the highest level players could level effectively amd didn't think level 30 would be sufficient for that. That is both a product of assuming incorrectly (sorry) and a lack of information about how things will work in 3.0.

If the current system is works fine, then the timeskip is really covering for lack of coordination among the players, which i'm not sure is something you can do anything about. It will allow you to put more content out, but the problem won't go away. You're simply delaying the problem from creating the same situation. 

Perhaps more information about 3.0, like a preview of relevant systems to the timeskip would be helpful in selling the idea. 

[Beatbox 0]

This post will not be one on giving my spectrum on this, but this is a post to help clear up on some mis-translations to you all. After every boss we will not be doing a time-skip on each one, this is simply a one time use to make up for lost time that players cannot help with the process on finding these boss rooms. Meaning, after this next boss, if this gets approved by the majority we will be skipping a few floors for the convenience of being behind schedule, and pumping out more quests and more entertainment for you all. I understand why people wouldn't want this, mostly because they wanted to fight more floor bosses to get the sick equipment that comes with it, and with all due honesty, if you all wanted we could come up with replacement battles, or just cut straight to the point to the actual boss battle for you all, however the chances upon that is not on me, mearly just a suggestion. 

Hope it clears up some things, let me know if ya need anything else.

[Emerath 0]

If anything, combined with my previous points, the timeskip just feels like you're taking away parts of my ability to properly progress my character within a set timeframe. A focus too much on the numbers and game systems hurts a forum like this in cases like this. You timeskip and I'm going to do one of two things. Either I'm going to have to make the story up in my head and you're giving me free reign to say, "Yeah this is totally what happened." Which to me feels wrong. Or I'm going to have to go back and tell the story of the timeskip to properly develop my character.

I already arbitrarily jumped my character forward once due to my own health issues and inactivity, and I'm having to explain every bit of that (as it should be). But a mod imposed version of that would legitimately upset me. Doing so the first time was my choice, and that's all it should ever be. You want to give me free levels? Do that, but don't push my timetable forward as a mandatory event.

[Beat 0]

4 hours ago, Beatbox said:

This post will not be one on giving my spectrum on this, but this is a post to help clear up on some mis-translations to you all. After every boss we will not be doing a time-skip on each one, this is simply a one time use to make up for lost time that players cannot help with the process on finding these boss rooms. Meaning, after this next boss, if this gets approved by the majority we will be skipping a few floors for the convenience of being behind schedule, and pumping out more quests and more entertainment for you all. I understand why people wouldn't want this, mostly because they wanted to fight more floor bosses to get the sick equipment that comes with it, and with all due honesty, if you all wanted we could come up with replacement battles, or just cut straight to the point to the actual boss battle for you all, however the chances upon that is not on me, mearly just a suggestion. 

Hope it clears up some things, let me know if ya need anything else.

That sort of goes with my suggestion of making the floor clearing process faster temporarily. I like the idea of simply making the boss fights available for the next 10 floors with not mapping required due to some rare find by a random player or something like that. Easy to justify in story and much more satisfying since we get to fight the bosses. :)

[Takao 0]

You do realize that the people benefitting most from faster floor clearing are the higher leveled players, right? Players on the low-level range don't typically participate in either floor clearing or floor scouting. This means that all the SP from those threads goes right to the higher leveled players, which only increases the gap.

Also, as a side note: "You want to give me free levels? Do that, but don't push my timetable forward as a mandatory event." You go from talking about character development and then immediately switch to saying "I'm completely okay with free levels, but don't expect me to put any work into receiving them."

[Emerath 0]

I don't think you paid attention to my point at all. I'm completely okay with working for my character. But at the start of all of this, the entire point of the timeskip was, as you put it, to reduce the level gap between high and low players. What my point was, is that "fixing" that level gap with a timeskip is what has averse effect, such as pushing the RP aspect out the window for the sake of the numbers game. I like working for what I've got, and I always have. But in all honesty, and I know I'm not alone here, the story aspect is more important to me than the numbers game we play. Does that mean that I want to go play on another RP site? It has at times, but this one has that underlying RPG and dice system to make the story more interesting, in a D&D sort of way. There is that random element of failure.

I get why you want to do the timeskip. But my problem is that you aren't looking at the whole picture, and it feels like people are getting upset if popular opinion doesn't go the way it "should". To me, as a whole, the timeskip still doesn't fix the issue, doesn't change the issue, puts a bandaid on the issue, forces the people who are more interested in character development into a corner, and honestly, from a writer standpoint, a timeskip is the most lazy way to say, "And then stuff happened." with a magical rainbow leading into the next segment. if I wanted to timeskip, I'll go write a book. Half the fun is the constant timeline of progression and the fact that your character has to keep going even when the times get tough or they're not high enough level.

[Beat 0]

6 hours ago, Takao said:

You do realize that the people benefiting most from faster floor clearing are the higher leveled players, right? Players on the low-level range don't typically participate in either floor clearing or floor scouting. This means that all the SP from those threads goes right to the higher leveled players, which only increases the gap.

Also, as a side note: "You want to give me free levels? Do that, but don't push my timetable forward as a mandatory event." You go from talking about character development and then immediately switch to saying "I'm completely okay with free levels, but don't expect me to put any work into receiving them."

Well, like I said, I don't see a problem with the level gap as it is, so if it does happen to benefit higher level players, then so be it. The SP going to the higher level players would have happened had they been clearing floors at a reasonable pace anyways. In this case, according to what you have said, they COULD have been clearing them quickly, but they simply haven't. This way, they get to fight the bosses and then you can put out the content you're holding onto.

Honestly a <10 floor skip isn't the end of the world, timeskips/level bumps are just a giant nod to the numbers game and leave a bad taste in my mouth.

As I said before, if people have an issue with people who have played longer than them and done more threads/quests being stronger than they are, then they need to think about why that bothers them. Numbers are certainly in integral part of this site, no doubt, but RP is just as important to some people. Personally, that feeling of constantly working towards the end goal feels good. I also get that same feeling of joy from a great loot roll, so someone else having "all the things" really doesn't bother me much since I haven't been playing nearly as long as the uber leveled players.   

However, without having all of the information (Which would really help) that you guys have to determine this timeskip as necessary, if this situation is indeed impossible to remedy without a timeskip as Baldur said, then I trust you guys to do what you feel is best. It's not that many floors and as long as measures are taken to ensure that another one isn't necessary in the future, I'm sure I'll get over it. :)

[Seul 1]

Tbh if you say you care more about story than numbers I'd say you're a liar- 

Without the numbers you're limited to OPs on the first floor where everyone happens to show up and do nothing interesting. Also, you all go on about story this and story that, but you want demonics and to eventually be on the frontline so you feel more important. Just won't say it. The boss fights are the site's main event but since there's permadeath you can't do them if you don't strive for better stats.

All that said though, imagine this: The timeskip actually ends up adding more story to the site. Other sites I've seen tend to have site wide plots going on. The only one on SAO-RPG at the moment is "clear the game or die". It's boring. That's why the most viewed threads are the ones where people die. I mean even the RWBY site has actual villains. 

I'm not staff or anything so I can't say these things for certain, but I feel if the skip happened it would open more opportunities than what we currently have for story arcs of some sort and the staff wouldn't just go "okay a month has passed and now we're on floor 25 go back to just walking around the first floor guys". Instead of characters just popping out of thin air there'd be actual explanations if certain organizations or NPCs showed up. Take Death Adder for example: A level 70 character who now also has Dual Blades. With how rare such high level people are you'd think more people would have heard about him but nope he just shows up one day cause we have no way to explain where he came from-

[Takao 0]

Me not responding to the majority of your post is not synonymous with me missing your point. I found it funny that somebody spent the majority of their post talking about how they favour story over mechanics, which I can respect, and then ended it with "But I'll totally take those free levels tho".

I don't think that a timeskip is necessarily lazy, nor do I think it's throwing story out for the sake of mechanics. I'll be and have been the first to admit that it certainly isn't ideal, but I and the current staff have inherited a mess that we're doing our best to fix, and it involves a lot of uncomfortable changes that I wish I didn't have to make. Right now, there is a very obvious divide of player levels that doesn't fit the narrative. Sword Art Online is intended to be a difficult game, and the presence of these players dilutes that danger. That, in my opinion, is wounding the site's narrative. We can't make bosses stronger to compensate or the little guys start to suffer. We can't balance them more to the average level, because then it becomes too easy for the higher end of the player spectrum to progress.

The current floor number is deadzone, and it would help considerably- both for storytelling and for mechanics balancing- for us to pass it. The medium we use is inherently slower, and in-character progress is skewed because of it. Whether you think there should be overleveled characters or not, you have to admit it's a little bit ridiculous that our highest level character is sixteen levels away from Kirito's level during the Floor 75 boss raid. You also have to admit its rather difficult to introduce major plot villains of respectable strength, such as individuals like Death Adder or groups like Laughing Coffin, without it seeming ridiculous.

Additionally, there is no way it "should" go. If a timeskip was absolutely necessary to fix something that was broken, it would've been done without a poll. That's what the new leveling system is for. Think of it like this: You have a room with a water pipe. The water pipe bursts and fills the room with water. If you only patch the pipe, you're left with a flooded room. If you only drain the room, the broken pipe will just fill it again. Patching both the pipe and draining the room is the ideal situation. The timeskip is, however, meant to help provide an opportunity for new players to close the gap that they often complain about. Is it necessary? No. It doesn't effect me either way, so I have no personal investment in it. I do enjoy the idea of helping lower leveled players, who would benefit the most from the bump mechanically, because the process of clearing floors is a frontline activity that inherently benefits those on the higher end of the level spectrum the most. I'm also tired of hearing people complain about overleveled characters, which they will undoubtedly be doing at some point again when they start hitting the same wall that blocks high-level characters from progressing further.

As for the claim that they're liars for caring more about story over mechanics, I disagree. The site isn't as cut and dry as "If you use stats in any capacity, you're part of the numbers culture". You can enjoy both sides while leaning toward one. I don't have anything against people that prefer story, and I don't have anything against people that prefer mechanics. My job isn't to tell people how to enjoy the site, it's to make the site enjoyable for either side. Unfortunately the mechanics side takes precedence more often than the story side, because stats and parameters are omnipresent and the consequences of unbalance with them are something that need to be taken into consideration. Your character can be permanently killed by mechanics, and I find that to be a good reason to focus heavily on that matter. Does that mean mechanics are more important than story? Not necessarily. In some areas they hold a higher priority, and in some areas story holds a higher priority.

So, like I said. We inherited a mess, and we're trying our best to get it back on track in a way for everybody to enjoy. Whether you prefer to pay attention to the story aspects or the mechanics, everybody will eventually have to come to realize that sacrifices will need to be made on either side. A one-time skip of up to ten floors and one or two months forward isn't going to hurt any more than trying to reason why your character is still level 1 on floor 1 after x amount of months/years/cleared floors.

[Emerath 0]

7 hours ago, Seul said:

Tbh if you say you care more about story than numbers I'd say you're a liar- 

Without the numbers you're limited to OPs on the first floor where everyone happens to show up and do nothing interesting. Also, you all go on about story this and story that, but you want demonics and to eventually be on the frontline so you feel more important. Just won't say it.

I would like to say that you calling me a liar is incredibly rude considering you clearly don't know me. You're talking to a guy who spent years RPing on World of Warcraft simply because I had more fun writing a story and living in the world than I did clearing the endgame. I'm sorry if it bothers you that much that I don't worship the numbers, but jeez. You don't have to call me a liar.

7 hours ago, Takao said:

Me not responding to the majority of your post is not synonymous with me missing your point. I found it funny that somebody spent the majority of their post talking about how they favour story over mechanics, which I can respect, and then ended it with "But I'll totally take those free levels tho".

I just want to clarify that I really think you misunderstood what I meant by the line, "If you want to give me free levels, then fine." Worded poorly, totally my fault, but all I meant was, "I'd rather you give me levels to fix your problem than take away my story." I get that you guys got a mess. I won't ever deny that. I won't ever deny that you have done so much to improve on that mess. I'll be the first to give you a round of applause, and I appreciate the respect for at least my opinion on the matter of wanting to preserve my story.

In all honesty, a timeskip is still a lazy writing tool, but I will admit that it isn't being used for the reason that writers use it as in terms of it being a lazy writing tool. This timeskip would have a purpose, unlike most. Mostly, I will still disagree with this, but with the acknowledgement that valid points have been made, I don't really have any additional room to argue. Ultimately, I still chose to return to this site, and this wouldn't make me leave again. I just wanted you to know how frustrating it is to come back to this. Bad timing? Most definitely. But neither party in this can plan for that.

Legitimately though, half of this problem is you're asking us to vote on a problem when presented with only one half of the solution. I know why you're holding your cards close to your chest on 3.0, trust me. But that just makes me think that before the timeskip is actually done, you should roll out 3.0 and then let us reevaluate the necessity. Or give us the leveling details at least. We can all make a better educated decision with less argument in that case. But as it were, my case is made and I appreciate your points Takao.

[Vale 1]

No critique here. Just pointing out this extended argument is proving why we don't need a timeskip.

 

*The more you know!! Whoosh

[Seul 1]

@Emerath

Maybe calling you a liar was jumping the gun a bit, so for that I apologize to you and anyone else I might have offended with that statement. 

But, I will say I'm somewhat skeptical whenever someone says something along those lines around here just based on my own observations from the past year and couple of months I've been active. Even in my own threads with others there's rarely any talk about driving personal plots forward and more of "go post so we can get to a page and lock this thread" or about the SP reward, stats, etc. That's partially on me though. xD

[Takao 0]

The original plan was to make the timeskip live after 3.0 was released, so I'm more than willing to put the topic back up for re-evaluation once all the information can be made public. I'll admit that its a bit unfair of me to expect a completely educated decision when I can't give out every single detail, but I've done what I can to describe the problem and how the timeskip would contribute to solving it. Not an outstanding job by any means.

I have a lot of respect for players that look to preserve the story of their characters against the rather overwhelming numbers culture that eats away at the site. I know it seems like Staff might favour the numbers over stories, but that's mostly because we want to try and protect people from malicious misuse of them. The Zelrius, Ssendom, Manta, and Ebony PKs are prime examples of the consequences of poorly balanced mechanics. Four characters, close to a decade's worth of development and buildup, all ended in a single post they had no chance against. Also, to clarify, I'm not calling these instances malicious misuse of mechanics.

Anyway, I'd be more than happy to put this back up for discussion after 3.0 is released. While I've done the math in spreadsheets, SAO-RPG has a way of being unpredictable. I think that Staff could benefit just as much, if not more from seeing how things play out before coming to an ultimate decision. Also, just as an added note, the popularity vote weighing in favour of the timeskip does not instantly mean it'll happen. Player opinion is the principal concern, which is why it was left to a vote.

[Emerath 0]

11 minutes ago, Seul said:

@Emerath

Maybe calling you a liar was jumping the gun a bit, so for that I apologize to you and anyone else I might have offended with that statement. 

But, I will say I'm somewhat skeptical whenever someone says something along those lines around here just based on my own observations from the past year and couple of months I've been active. Even in my own threads with others there's rarely any talk about driving personal plots forward and more of "go post so we can get to a page and lock this thread" or about the SP reward, stats, etc. That's partially on me though. xD

Well, I appreciate that. And I won't say that a healthy dose of skepticism is a bad thing in that type of environment. But anyone who has RPed with me, or read my threads, knows that I focus pretty heavily on the story of my character and the people around me. Even now, I'm more focused on telling a good story than simply wrapping up a quest. I won't say that the numbers culture has never affected my decision making, but that was more in the early game when I was more worried about dying. Things are more fair now, and I can go through the entire game with NK tags if I never want to risk playing the PVP game (at least for now). But that takes out part of the story too, so it's all really up in the air.

Either way, I won't say that you and the staff are doing a bad job, Takao. I think you wanting to get a feel for the state of the game is fair, but I just kinda barreled in here half cocked and ready to fire. So maybe after I get back in, get Emerath's story rolling again, and start to feel the weight of the numbers game, I'll be more into the idea of the timeskip. We'll just have to see what that and 3.0 brings. Keep up the good work guys.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Emerath