State of the Site Discussion

[Vale 1]

I guess a full indepth analysis on my thought process for this entire ordeal including some other various notes I have for this discussion. I would have to agree with Zelrius in the fact that me and him spent the better part of the 6 months we were in cahoots on the site. As a power-gamer and avid roleplayer, I personally love this site because I can abuse both spectrums to my pleasure. We easily spent 4-8 hrs a day on various calls throughout the days and nights just calculating numbers and finding advantages. One of the biggest issues during the Tristan and Zero era's despite the fact I love the two tard-nuggets since I joined, was the issue over Unwritten and Written rules which caused a MASSIVE disconnect between staff and players. Many players abiding by rules they believe to exist, but when they fall back on the rule when they need it. The fact it was unwritten meant it could not be acted upon appropriately, when this almost caused one of Dom's Deaths, it was really infuriating and problematic.

With the new staff team, I believe we have a quality group of people who will voice their opinions to one another and work together (Dear lord I hope, or I'ma hurt you @Ruby... Yeah I am looking at you. :P). When I was abusing the system as Dom in the past, it was to finally abolish this situation of the Unwritten rules. I was intentionally trying to open the staff's eyes to see the problems and they wouldn't act. But those issues caused problems with other Very notable players that have had a misinterpretation with the Unwritten rules of the website, I will not use their names to keep things put at rest to stay at rest. The problems of the past are also the problems of now.

So we're at a dilemma that existed when even I started. The massive disconnect between the front lines and your character. The whole point of SAO-RPG is to enjoy the deep enrichening plot that can be created if you were maybe the Kirito of the story. But players don't want to be roleplaying themselves as cheerleaders for a solid ten levels before they can do anything alone. That long time spent just trying to prepare yourself to do anything is enough to prevent a player from even taking a stab at trying to play. The grind is too long for the delicious reward that comes there nearer the end. People LOVE to fight difficult bosses because that is the whole point of the gaming community. We want to push floors and see challenges presented to us, I am level 41 on my second character after a coup de grace was done on the Level 48 Legend Dom. And still what gets me to finish posts is getting to be in these Historical Floor Boss raids. But with all the issues that still occur, we've got a problem of a Boss Meeting Thread being completely held up and there is no attempt done to push the site forward. And from what it looks like a solid month or longer the site has completely stagnated.

People flow by the site every single day, new people we have never even met. And what makes or breaks the idea of them joining is how active the site is. Our Veteran's that are around are losing all their muse, quite literally so. They don't want to post, since they don't want to post, players trying to reach them have less insentive to post because the challenge is started to wane. With no real purpose to leveling at that point, people stop posting and just hover around the site. We need to show progression and an drive to displaying more of the site as a whole.

There are two actual solutions I can see from this.

-Hard Cap/Soft Cap with a Level minimum start: Since players really want to make an impact on the site and find a reason to start grinding. They just need to start at a higher level plain and simple. I know a lot of other players maybe upset with it. But I agree with shield, too damn bad. Should the new players start directly at 1 under the current tier, this I would have to disagree personally. There should still be some purpose to T1. Players should start with a specific SP to round them out to level 15 or 20. Enough that they can set their starting stats and atleast be able to fend for themselves. And an amount of Col to possible acquire a single perfect item, or a few uncommon items (Of course this may depend on players who own shops. But it is something they can find their first gear and specifically a training set of gear starting at T1 is pretty important.) This would be the best way to bring the site a bit closer together by also setting the Soft Cap level at level 50. And vastly increase the amount of SP needed to reach even higher levels. With new Tiers coming out, bring that Soft Cap and Hard Cap up.

-New Server: I have explained the benefits multiple times. But even this would not be enough. It would still need Hard and Soft Cap restraints and would be managed far more micromanaged than the first server did. There are many other variations that one could do to spice up a new server by including several and each server having it's own specific niche. Maybe one considered the Primary Server and had a time limit to finish the floors. The possibilities are endless technically.

Unfortunately, no choice is going to save this site. The only thing that is honestly going to save this site is our dedication as the SAO-RPG Family to try and bring people in and make them feel welcomed (And totally not kill level 1's in an OP... Not pointing ANY fingers at who could have POSSIBLY done that.)

Essentially what this boils down to, is the less active we are as a whole on this site. The more it is gonna reflect in the lack of users coming to the site. Personally I have seen a growth in the past 9 days playing with my constant posting and multiple-thread completion. Some veteran's are returning of their own volition seeing the site show some activity even if it mostly from a singular person. And we have had a couple new people come and join us. But the best I can think of is a Soft and Hard Cap to help bridge the site slightly.

That's all I have to say personally.

[Lessa 1]

Though I've been a member of the site for three years or so, I've spent considerable chunks of that time on various hiatuses. While many of those "rage quits" can be attributed to staff issues or site disputes, one thing has remained constant for the past two and a half years - a lack of community.

 

Don't misunderstand, I think the OOC community is fantastic. You're some of the funniest, most ridiculous people I've ever met, and that's what keeps drawing me back. But ultimately, the IC aspects fall flat. What I mean when I say community is the sense of belonging and purpose among the characters themselves. We've established our main goal - clear floors and escape Aincrad. That's a fantastic goal for a) people who are high enough level, b) people who are active enough to participate in boss battles, and c) people who enjoy writing combat and using numbers. At the present, I do not meet any of those conditions. As such, I'm not really sure what my place here is.

 

I continue to return to the site itself because I have a nostalgic tie to Lessa. I would not be writing were she dead, and in talking with a few other established members, I am not alone in this. If my character died today, I would leave and never look back. That is because I feel there is no place on the site for low leveled players, and no role for players like me, who just don't care about the numbers game. Sure, I could go craft if I don't want to fight, but how many times can I post about striking a piece of metal with a hammer?

 

What this site needs, in my opinion, is content. We need to create an atmosphere where everyone feels as though they have a purpose, be it on the front lines, or in a support role. Before I left last year, I saw an increase in lengthy, complex quests that require choices to be made. I think that is one of the best things we can do, and I would encourage us to keep that up. Don't make this a game where the only incentive is to run around on a track and collect gold coins. SAO is too rich a universe than that, and our writers (and current staff) are far too capable.

 

With that being said, we need to make a choice that fosters such lofty goals as these. While I understand the hesitancy to make dramatic changes, I do think dramatic changes are what we need. If we cannot change mindsets, we have to change mechanics. I don't know what 3.0 has in store for us game-wise, but I want to consider how it will be received by all players, especially those just joining.

 

If I had to choose between the suggestions laid out here, I would vote for a wipe. This would allow players to start fresh, and recapture some of that magic. My first few months on SAO-RPG were some of the happiest of my roleplay career, because we felt like a unit. We were exploring together, and that was a neat sensation. If we wipe, we could also allow some players to retain old memories, so even if floors were no longer cleared, we could still keep our relationships and carefully crafted histories. However, I also recognize how devastating that would be for players who put in their hours, grinding with or without the intent to game the system. 

 

I was also asked about the concept of a second server, which seems like it might alleviate some of these problems - start fresh, if you want, or stay. My concern is that that would divide our already small and fragile member base. We don't have the numbers right now for such a move, staff or writers. With work, it could be successful, but I worry what implications it may have on our OOC community, which is worth its weight in gold.

 

Caps seem like a logical option too, though again, it does not address all issues. What is there to motivate players to keep writing when they've reached a cap? How can that cap be explained IC, and how would it affect character development? Also, there are issues with the increase of minimum level (perhaps bringing all new members to level 20). How can we reward people who do actually decide to scrape their way to the top without help (if we should at all)? Will those who did their grind feel cheated? And how does this address the issue of lack of purpose? Sure, it might get us to the frontlines faster, but not everyone wants that.

 

Clearly, I'm not a numbers girl, and I am more concerned with quality of experience and story than I am with gaming a system. I know not everyone feels that way. But I do want to make sure that people who feel as I do are considered. We have the option to make our Aincrad diverse, with our crafts and our quests, so why not keep doing so?

 

If we plan to enrich our existing world, we need people to champion the movement. This is where my suggestion comes in. I recommend we open a short window of time (say, one month maximum), where dead characters can be brought back. We can justify this IC by saying there was a glitch, and they existed in limbo instead of dying. Players can come back as-is, or with stat/item handicaps.

 

Why do this? Because there have been some really exceptional writers over the years, whose characters have died for various reasons. Many of these writers promptly left. These writers have knowledge of "glory days," when there was a more united feel to the site. They have fantastic ideas. They can bring much needed activity. They can bring only positive elements. I've spoken to a number of writers with deceased characters, and they've confirmed that they would come back, given the chance to write a character who once meant so much to them. Furthermore, what is to keep people from just writing their characters elsewhere when they die? I know a few people who did just that. Why not give them the option to come back? So many positive changes have already been made, and we should showcase that.

 

Now there was a concern raised that writers might abuse this - show up just to revive their character, then disappear. I would encourage staff to consider instilling some sort of "probationary" element. Remind writers that they're being revived with the goal of improving the site in mind. If they bring back their character only to troll, or go inactive immediately, they should be killed again. This is not a permanent change, or a policy alteration. It is a very brief window that allows valued players to return. The idea of returning as a low-level player with no history (especially given the current frontline-driven atmosphere) is a terrible one. But you might be surprised how many people would return if they could finish the story they didn't get to tell.

 

The main argument against this is "if they're dead, they should stay dead." Personally, I think this is very shortsighted. Should we do this all the time? No, because that would discredit the concept of permanent death. But it has been years since the site was created, and as far as I know, this hasn't happened before. Why not make an exception, once, if it benefits a site we all agree needs help? Bringing back old characters would bring activity, bring richer content, and bring leadership (which would help the newcomers). When paired with some of the above suggestions, such as a soft cap and an increased minimum level, I think we would be in a really good place. It is a concept that can be discussed and perfected, but I would encourage you not to write it off entirely.

 

Summary: we are worried about caps and level jumps to make people more uniform. But if I feel valued as a level 1, and like I have a place, purpose, and something to do, that doesn't matter so much. If I'm given the impression that I have no self worth until I can fight in boss battles, of course I won't write unless I'm a level 20. That's when a level jump would be needed.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Lessa

[The Black-White Human 0]

It's just my opinion. But I think either the first or fourth one would be the best option. I myself prefer the fourth one over the first or the other two, since even though the level variety is (very) diverse. I'm actually surprisingly okay with it and I'm only level 7 xD

[Oikawa 1]

@Vale @Lessa @Endilix 

Endilix,

While I'm still on the fence for the whole server idea, in regards to your 2nd option, I offer my own alternative to this. It's an idea I had in the works as staff and if I'm not mistaken it should be in staff forums still ( @Teion, @Ruby ). But to remedy that nostalgia feel of taking on challenging bosses or events that had already passed, I had intended to release a Monster Arena that would accomplish this exact dilemma. Not only would it give a purpose to a canon feature we hadn't added yet but as you said it gives newer players, (and players who missed out), players a chance to experience the events the current front-liners had to trudge through while still rewarding them (Not as rewarding as having participated in the actual event, but a reward nonetheless) for completing the event. Maybe this idea can be revisited.

Vale and Lessa,

I'll group my response to you together as its not a response but rather just commentary. Vale I agreed with a lot of what you said in regard to trying to retain activeness in the site. like most of the response given that's a major point the community wants to drive home. Much like Endilix and others have mentioned, the new server/wipe ideas solve their fair share of issues we have while still retaining their own problems as well and I agree that, no matter what happens it'll be up to the community to direct how far this site can go. This site is only as good as we make it. Which echoes what Lessa was saying towards the end of her post. I agree with almost everything, if not everything, you mentioned. While most of my post seemed more focus on explaining why the numbers game was bad for the site, your post touched more on the aspect I was pushing, content and story. Your idea of a brief revival window is actually quite appealing. Seeing and causing deaths alike, I'm for seeing where this idea can go. If a vote was to take place, you'd have mine simply because giving the site more active writers is a major step in the right direction and retaining the ideas of those like us who have been around as well as combining them with the fresh minds of these newer folks, I'm willing to bet we can truly make SAO a more inclusive, story driven, narrative that we can all enjoy while still retaining the combat and competition most of us know and love.

All in all, staff you have quite a bit of feedback with diverse opinions and ideas. This community I hope can be unified in one thought; So long as the changes made have a clear goal and direction in mind, we have a reason to stay and watch it prosper.

[Macradon 0]

5 hours ago, Endilix said:

I already know your outcry on this one: "They didn't do that in the anime/manga, that's wrong!" And my main point is, let's be real here. The rules have already had to be pretty flexible and loose in order to get it working as a pen and paper type RPG, so what makes it impossible here?

I mean, the real felxible thing to make it work is that you have SP instead of the Canon way of levelign and acquiring skills.
What other examples can you come with?

[Vale 1]

@Lessa

If there was a site revival of characters. I'd be all for that, but there could be some specific characters that the Staff doesn't want to see revived. Namely Dom and Zel, and I will have to say for good reason too. This is purely an opinion before anyone gets mad. But some limitations should be placed on players that do revive that way, and a way to fairly figure out where the gray ends to become Black and White.

But let me deffo say, I'd be all for a revival of dead characters. I was lowkey having that thought a few days ago but didn't pitch it because I didn't know how well it would be taken to if I said it. xD

Edited October 3, 2017 by Vale

[Lessa 1]

Just now, Vale said:

@Lessa

If there was a site revival of characters. I'd be all for that, but there could be some specific characters that the Staff doesn't want to see revived. Namely Dom and Zel, and I will have to say for good reason too. This is purely an opinion before anyone gets mad. But some limitations should be placed on players that do revive that way, and a way to fairly figure out where the gray ends to become Black and White.

Why would you be against their revival? I'm assuming it is an IC reason, considering the players aren't IP banned (as far as I know). Is it because they are too powerful? I know more than a few veterans would be willing to come back at half or zero experience, without expecting to be given original items. They just want their character back, and that would be incentive enough to reinsert themselves in the writing community.

[Vale 1]

Just now, Lessa said:

Why would you be against their revival? I'm assuming it is an IC reason, considering the players aren't IP banned (as far as I know). Is it because they are too powerful? I know more than a few veterans would be willing to come back at half or zero experience, without expecting to be given original items. They just want their character back, and that would be incentive enough to reinsert themselves in the writing community.

It's definitely a case of just where the gray ends, and if the reviving seems fair. I mean first it must be approved. But when they died they had a lot of items on them that could benefit the site once again. And the issue about their unique skills (I'd just assume they'd be gone.). Personally if they were revived, I'd be so hyped. But these two specific characters are at the core of a lot of problems of the past when it came to problems with Staff. If they could be revived, I would like to pursue how and what is retained. There are a lot of questions, this would definitely bring purpose to the site from veteran players. Certain a good three or four may return for sure. I'm very flip floppy on this, I both want desperately and as well don't want Dom to return personally. And that's how I'm trying to respond to this, not doing too hawt on that.

[Macradon 0]

If they were to be revived, the whole story arc Macradon is going through is based on nothing. Perma Death is a big part of what SAO is, and taking that part away just makes this yet another MMO-RPG without much else to give other than that you can actually beat this MMO.

[Lessa 1]

Just now, Macradon said:

If they were to be revived, the whole story arc Macradon is going through is based on nothing. Perma Death is a big part of what SAO is, and taking that part away just makes this yet another MMO-RPG without much else to give other than that you can actually beat this MMO.

Is that enough to settle for a site that could do so much better?

[Macradon 0]

Well then, if that's what people want, that'd be great for them, then.

This site would become another MMO-RPG loosely based on SAO, and I'm not too sure that's what people come for, if they are, then that would be perfect with making characters revivable.
But I just don't see, and that's of course just my opinion, why we should take away a huge part of what SAO was about.

If the interest is to keep the site alive above else, then sure, that could possibly add to it.

[Lessa 1]

1 minute ago, Macradon said:

Well then, if that's what people want, that'd be great for them, then.

This site would become another MMO-RPG loosely based on SAO, and I'm not too sure that's what people come for, if they are, then that would be perfect with making characters revivable.
But I just don't see, and that's of course just my opinion, why we should take away a huge part of what SAO was about.

If the interest is to keep the site alive above else, then sure, that could possibly add to it.

Loosely based on SAO? Staff has taken great pains to keep everything canon, for as long as I've been here. If this were a mere "trapped in a game" situation, sure. But we have reflected SAO in every way possible.

[Spencer 0]

Many people know me as Clarence, people now know me as Spencer, and some people know me in the in-between. My opinion could we do this :
A soft reset. Like a site wide rebirth, it would cut high players in half, but not take them all the way down, and new players wont really be affected. I know that this kind of messes with quests and threads, but that could be addressed with different things that the staff figure out.

Players could choose threads they want to keep into their character profile, and add it up to their SP, and then they could start building back up to where they were before, and new people wont feel like they are getting the short end of the stick. Like Calrex would be around level 40ish, a lot closer than he was before to the new people.

And in opinion to the idea of reviving dead players. Its a very very good idea in theory but also the stories could really get affected.

[Lessa 1]

3 minutes ago, Spencer said:

And in opinion to the idea of reviving dead players. Its a very very good idea in theory but also the stories could really get affected.

To address this, I don't think it would be all that difficult. Claim there was a glitch and a few people existed in limbo for a while. They come back out of the blue. Nothing else in your story has to change. If you want to meet them and have the "wow you're alive" character development, great. If not, you don't have to write with them. But that's just how I see it playing out. I know a few people might consider this a "cop out," but I still believe the benefits would outweigh any concerns.

[Spencer 0]

@Lessa

I was trying to post more but it cut me off, stupid internet. Having players come back has some needed things that could help the site out tremendously. Just if the effect to the story is something people are okay with, I support it with open arms. (I need Spencer and Dom/ and Zel to meet.) So I support it, just a little weary about it all.

[Oikawa 1]

12 minutes ago, Lessa said:

To address this, I don't think it would be all that difficult. Claim there was a glitch and a few people existed in limbo for a while. They come back out of the blue. Nothing else in your story has to change. If you want to meet them and have the "wow you're alive" character development, great. If not, you don't have to write with them. But that's just how I see it playing out. I know a few people might consider this a "cop out," but I still believe the benefits would outweigh any concerns.

To be fair, "the cop-out" excuse can be used on any of the ideas given here.

New Server? Cop out so staff doesn't have to deal with bridging the gap between old and new players.

Time skip? See above

Scaling up newbies ? See above

Revival? is less of a cop out in the terms of gap and while it does affect some storylines (Oink and Zel for instance), the above does as well.

My point, @Spencer and everyone else, the whole cop-out argument is a cop-out in itself. It doesn't hold water as a counter to any of the given ideas.

@Vale Im going to be the one to say it as I know you ooc enough to consider this okay.

You give yourself way too much credit bud. People exploited the system long before you came, while you were here, and long after you left. Sure there was some issues between what and how things were exploited between yourself in particular and staff, but nearly every one exploited the system in their own way. I did, and I was staff. You're apprehension to bringing back Zel and Dom specifically is a little irrational in my opinion. You were powerful sure. But so was Alkor in his time, Mari in her time, Kiru in her time; you, Zel, and I during our era, and Calrex currently. There was no shortage of strong players in Aincrad's history. You were just one of many.

You bring up gear, that's hardly an issue and @Lessa already mentioned the revival wouldn't come without guide-lines and stipulations. The revival is an opportunity to give dead characters the chance to re-write their story with the purpose of bringing activity to the site. That was Lessa's point, activity. Not reintroduce exploitation and broken builds/loop-holed items and skills.

I'm not saying this to discredit your character's impact on site or in Aincrad, because that would be false, however, your statements only seem to hype up how much of a bad-a you used to be and how much you want to get back to that, and frankly that's not the point behind the revival.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Oikawa

[Vale 1]

1 hour ago, Oikawa said:

You give yourself way too much credit bud

Ya darn right dar. I like to toot my own horn, I'm well aware there were many who did what I did. I like meself too hard. :P
Personally though, revival is an interesting idea and could be nicely rp'd to those willing to revive.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Vale

[Shield 0]

@Oikawa I don't believe all cop-outs are made equally.

• Glitches in Aincrad were rare or non-existent, Yui notwithstanding, so although I think revival would be an okay compromise for those who feel they died unjustly, you'd have to make one hell of a case for it, and only on a case-by-case basis. It'd be forced, but I would understand.
• Time skip would be lazy as far as storytelling goes, but it's not inconsistent with the source material. It does break the continuity of the site though, and honestly I don't think it solves the things it purports to solve.
• A wipe is a nice "clean" way to potentially fix the issues that are there, but the site is going to be a completely different place afterwards. Players will leave, the system will change, and if the changes don't work out, then the vets who do stick it out will have lost an awful lot of work for nothing. It's a cop-out by new players to make the game what they want it to be without respecting the work of the players who came before them.
   
• Scaling up newbies seems like a "too convenient" solution, but keep in mind that to be consistent with the source material, this almost needs to happen. These players didn't just voip in out of the blue. They've been there the whole time, and honestly, the whole "I just stayed in the town of beginnings until now" answer is becoming a cop-out in and of itself. It's honestly not reasonable to expect new players to catch up to 3+ years of progress in order to become relevant without getting burnt out and discouraged.

I see the point you're making, because there is no perfect answer, but at the same time, to call all options a cop-out isn't quite accurate.

 

@Lessa I'm not inherently opposed to the idea of reviving characters if there's a good case for it. I feel like I'm not understanding your stance though, because what I've heard sounds like unhappiness that characters died, with a solution of encouraging them to come back by allowing them a second chance. I have to admit that there are a lot of people who probably would quit if their character died if for no other reason just out of pure salt, but honestly, we knew death was a possibility when we joined. Both because of the source material and because of the rules laid out in the tutorials.

It's like D&D. You can make all of the right decisions, but if the dice or the situation or the story turn on you, sometimes you're just forced to reroll. If you can't handle the possibility of a character dying, then you probably should have picked a different anime to RP. It's the risk of death that makes things interesting and makes SAO SAO.

Again, if I'm missing the point of your sentiment, correct me. I'm only catching bits and pieces of the conversation, and honestly, some of it is TL, so I DR.

[Lessa 1]

@Shield

I'm not sure if you read my initial post (as long as it was), but I value community over canon. I have for a long time, even during my stint on staff. If we determine an action will benefit the writers, even if canon isn't adhered to 100%, I support it. I know that others don't feel that way, but I don't believe actually being trapped in a virtual game and writing about it with others should be considered identical. If you're actually in SAO, sure, you do things a certain way. On a writing website, you have to worry about member retention, inviting and keeping new members, and satisfying veterans. I feel more could be done to acknowledge this disconnect, and I don't believe that "it isn't in SAO" is always the answer.

 

I am bummed that my friends' characters are dead, but that is far from my only motivation with this suggestion. If that were the case, I would have been causing a ruckus when they died, not multiple years later. I'm putting this forward because I think the site is in dire need of a mindset change, and a handful of really capable writers coming back could help with that. I don't mean to suggest we can't do it without them, but their appearance might spark something. And they would have to commit to spearheading this. Also, on a very basic level, they're bringing much needed activity.

 

If you're referencing the Discord discussions last night, I'm not advocating for the removal of the permadeath here. I think the concept could be revisited, but right now, I'm mostly interested in extending an invitation to individuals who really could help the site. I think the pros outweigh the cons.

 

My lunch period is over, but I can elaborate on anything later, if you need me to.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Lessa

[Genji 0]

I think we need a stronger emphasis on story, character building, and investing in our toons more than just numbers, skill points, and items.

Sure, those things can endear someone to the invaluable time they've invested, but there's so much more to roleplaying than the combat monkey aspect. We should explore that direction, and give people more chances to actually build this world of Aincrad we've been sloughing through for some 22 floors without ever really exploring.