2.5 PKing Rules / Removal of Thread Tags

[Aereth 1]

Hey there.

Now that the 2.5 Patch has been out for a couple of days it's time to speak about changes made to the Thread Tags. With the new PK mechanic you are now always at the risk of dying when RPing with others. A good friend of mine told me that this new mechanic is heavily frowned upon by you, the player-base. 

The staffs intention was to make RPing on the site a little bit closer to the actual anime, where you also would have to take care who you trust before heading out for some happy adventuring. 

But now it's time to tell us if you guys and gals like the new mechanic or not. We as staff don't want create things that the player-base does not want.

I personally have already thought about some possible solutions for that problem. For instance: We could implement something like a "Spawn Protection" that keeps new players safe for x Levels, so they can find some trustworthy people to RP with, but I'd also like to hear some suggestions from you guys.

So please share your input on that matter, and help resolving this problem. :)

[Jomei 0]

Despite being a part of the PST team, I wanted to share my own ideas on this.}

I think that having PKers is a must, being that was a big part of the Sword Art Online Story. However, we do not want newer/lower leveled players fearing going out into the open, with the possibility of becoming fodder for Player Killing characters. With that being said, I think that the idea of PKing should be entirely story based, as in the intended PKer must PM the player OOC about their intentions. From there, the intended victim can decide if they want to allow the player killer to enter the thread, or not. However, we also know how this will turn out, there will never be anyone player killed until someone wants to rid a character for the sake of someone elses story. 

That being said, I think that we should still with the kill intention thing, but maybe the PKer could, again, with permission from the thread owner, enter the thread just as a scare, just to add to a Role Play experience. Maybe they could roleplay a chase, or a threat.. but the player would not be killed by the PKer unless they are provoked with an attack by the intended victim.

TL;DR version.

PKer must message their victim with their intentions.
If victim accepts, the PKer can enter the thread and attempt to kill player.
If victim declines, PKer can still enter the thread just to scare the player, but no killing.

[Kisodeth 0]

Acting out as a threatening villain in someone's Roleplay thread would be a ton a fun. Acting out said battle via role play instead of stats, makes both characters look good and allows balance between both to add in an immersive tale. That being said, I touched on the subject with Azide in Discord, taking the hard earned experience a player has had in SAO after so many accumulated years and then having it removed is a bit frowny. Good player will never get that chance again, also you run the risk of a member never rejoining after so many lost hours. Its basically resetting a thousand hour game you put into and now you have nothing to show for it. (Sorry Dom). While at the time the great revealing of Opal as a Laughing Coffin member was a great plot twist, it could have been handled a much better way from a staff mechanic back in the day. Temporarily throwing a character out of a thread when their HP turns 0 is a much safer bet than killing them altogether. 

Popping into someones thread as a Threat with means of story and not actually killing a player would be pretty cool implementation. Of course permission would need to be granted. What I had feared was that even PKers got boned after the new rules, basically ceasing all forms of PKing from the website. Maybe PK for story purposes, high level story suggested threats, and leave turning Orange to NPCs to story driven characters that staff create.  

 

[Eira 0]

Put short, Player Killing should always be permission based.

Having villains and murderers is extremely fun for plot; however, it should be done for story and only story.
If you are going out trying to murder everyone without permission just to prove you’re some bad guy IC or are really strong, you’re doing it not for story, but because you feel you either have to OOC prove yourself by killing off fictional characters, or because you get some kind of OOC enjoyment by taking away the hard work of others or making your character great at the expense of other people.

In other words, it’s just mean when it is without permission. Don't enable people to be jerks. 

While the site wants to remain as close to SAO as possible, bear in mind that this is a roleplay site, not a death game MMO anime. Nor is it an MMO video game where death means respawn; SAO means you’re out of the game if you die. All your hours spent leveling meant absolutely nothing.

As a beginner roleplayer or newbie to the site, the rule regarding all threads being KE just appears flat out intimidating. What is the point of even joining and roleplaying, if someone can just jump in and kill you to give themselves some kind of boost?

One idea is to keep lower levels ‘protected’. This “solution”, however, is quite redundant. Since once you are high enough, all of that lower level work can be thrown out the window.

Ideally, tags are redundant; threads should all be No-Kill, and only OOC permission may allow a character to be killed off by someone.

The best course of action is to understand that SAO-RPG, the roleplay site, is NOT Sword Art Online, the anime. 
Members should ask for permission to kill a character. If the target says no, scaring is fine, like Jomei and Kisodeth mentioned. It is fun to feel a threat IC, but to not actually feel threatened OOC that your character might die. We come together to roleplay for fun in the end, and not to constantly have to be on our guard, on edge, and worried about someone able to take that fun away.

TL;DR:
What Jomei said. PK with permission only.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Eira

[Sey 0]

Another PST Enters the fray! King Sey is here!

Now here is a note I'd like to make. At the end of the day, this is as much story as it is gameplay. The site can be treated as both, and both should be considered equally. Killing off a character and a whole entire story for the sake of taking away a demonic drop they obtained does not do this.

Levels are a concern as it is, and I know that is being worked on. But the threat of having any open thread invaded and you get killed because someone doesn't like you OOC will be very limiting on the roleplay side of the scale. If we want to prevent players from having a huge level gap, giving the PKs a chance to just slaughter newbie open threads will just worsen that problem.

I understand that player killings happening at any time can happen at any time is true to the lore of SAO. But we are not SAO, we are SAO-RPG. We are based off of the series, a non-canon site that can drop a thing or two if it's for the sake of keeping story and players characters alive. Unexpected player killings was never the entirety of the anime, as that would just be a montage of killing... Which I'm sure many other anime can fill that heartless void.

So yeah, I'm not for player killers senselessly killing so that the site could be their personal "King of the Hill" game. I agree with the victim giving permission first for the player kill before the action is executed. It's their character at the end of the day, so they can choose when their character is finished.

Of course, there are a couple exceptions. Total Loss PvP, boss monsters, KE threads, etc. But in all of these, consent must be given by the victim, which would be a fault on heir end if their character dies. But they had a chance to avoid that, and that's what this is all about.

With all that, I'll agree with those who want to keep player killing from being abused and making sure permission is granted before it happens.

[Thorsten 0]

I think that the integration is well done, though there are some ambiguities as to what happens if caught by a guard. I am glad to finally see that orange players can enter safe zones however. I do, however, think the <<Redemption>> quest should be available past the 4th infraction personally. This would allow for people who have had more than 4 to change their ways down the line. I.E. someone is a chronic thief and they want to change

I disagree with Jomei however. While I agree there should be some notice, especially if it is an OP, it would be near pointless to have a PK system and not have an element of surprise to it. 

[Ryo 0]

I'm on the fence about the whole PK thing. I think certain things should be in place to protect new players, as well as older players.

-Spawn Protection: This idea is a good one. From levels, let's just say, 1-10. A player cannot be killed by another player. This protects players from blood hungry higher levels players.

-Level Requirements for FLDuels: An idea came to me where that, in other PvP modes in MMOs is that you have to be within a certain level threshold to face another player. So a level one couldn't challenge a level 39 to a floor duel. I also believe that the winner of a full loss duel, should be given the orange tag of murder. Give high level players a chance to at least get the tag, by killing off an older character.

Protected Areas: another way to protect those precious numbers, is having protected Areas. This includes safe zones, boss fight threads, boss meetings, and shop threads.

And I'm with the majority it seems. If you want to kill a player then you need to talk to them OoC and agree on something. I know this rarely happens, but it's gotta happen. But I do like the element of surprise. So, I'm saying that the full post of 'dedication to kill' should be active. So if a player is bloodthirtsy they can state thier intent to kill, and the players who don't leave afterwords get the short end.

[Paglikha 0]

I am one of the "new" (read: low-leveled) players who would like to keep the current PK rules. It is currently amazing for the idea of someone to be able to kill you at any time. It fills the low-leveled player with a certain dread that keeps them on their toes. However, I do agree it can be discouraging. However, I don't think it should be changed much.

What might be a good idea is to create and enforce a roleplay etiquette. There can be two rules. One rule is that no player can go willy nilly killy and go abuse lower-leveled players. The second ethic (unenforced rule to a certain point) is that the player should ask for permission to kill another player. These two rules should be formulated so that if the player killer is specifically and very frequently targeting low-leveled players without their consent (up to staff discretion on what frequent is and how frequent consent needs to be acquired), they can be "removed" from the game. This "removal" is also up to the choices of the staff (not sure if it wants to be killed by NPC or something).

(Props to Mari's multiple kills for giving me this idea. I thought it would be a pretty good blend between the constant required consent of 1.x and the current rule. Under the current rules, Mari would've killed a lot more. Under the old rules, Mari wasn't able to kill that many people. Admittedly still a ton, but not as much as it could have been.)

[Kion 0]

I like the current system, of always being at risk. It makes the game in itself much more surprising, and makes characters have to carefully choose who to RP with. Also, allows PKers to actually kill players, being there are a bunch of PKers in the actual canon and with the system of having to get permission and that type of thing... I can see that getting very hard to actually kill another player. Just my thoughts.

[Vigilon 0]

I, for one, am against surprise killings for the fact that one, newer players will be discouraged, and will likely flee/not join the site. Two, this opens a window for people to kill each other for ridiculous reasons such as disliking/hating the target character OOC. Three, this may take our site down a road in which the killers begin to massacre players everywhere, and eventually new players might stop coming, and I don't think there are players(Including myself) who would be okay with this site essentially, unintentionally, becoming some kind of Hunger Games.

I noticed Ryo's suggestion on having those who win full loss duels become orange. I confess that I disagree for a few reasons... Example A: Player A challenges Player B to a full loss duel. Both players are currently green. Player A does not mind becoming orange, but Player B does not want to become orange, and their character would probably choose to stand their ground. Becoming orange out of self defense? Doesn't make sense to me. Example B: Player C is keeping an eye on Player D, due to suspicion. Both players are green. Player D sees that Player C does not trust them, and with good reason... Both players are alone in this situation, and Player D decides to get rid of Player C so that they won't be alive to tell of what Player D is up to... But even if Player D was to win, he'd still be branded a criminal, and the suspicious Player C would be if the result were vice versa. I don't see how any attempts to stay green would amount to anything if conflict is inevitable and thus so is being branded a criminal. Besides, this would prove to be a problem for the Vigilante players who are defending themselves against first time killers via duel(Yes, including myself...should the situation ever come up). I don't think a good player would want to be a fugitive just for defending themselves, or stopping a not-so-good player from making their first kill in the first place. By the way(I'm asking for a friend), if an NPC player is killed in a duel(Regarding current rules) the cursor won't turn orange, will it(I am guessing what the answer to that already is, but better safe than sorry)?

On the whole, asking the target for permission to engage in combat would definitely be a step up from where we are right now. If a killer wants to make a kill, but there are no members willing to fight you, there are always the NPC players, made solely for combat and story, just never fighting alongside you.

Glad to share my thoughts on the matter, and I am not intending to be against anyone here.

Since I believe this is the longest post that I've made on this site, here.

Spoiler

A Potato.

 

[Kion 0]

@Vigilon And there is what I missed/forgot, players can kill NPC "players". I agree with everything you said for the most part then, now that I know/remember that. Sorry, guess I probably should've checked deeper in the guides for that rule.

[Itzal 0]

I agree with Jomei, Kisodeth, Eira and Vigilon.  Players should never be allowed to kill without the permission of the other player.  Ever.  This is something that will allow players to keep a sense of security.  Especially players who have many goals for their characters or who have put forth a lot of effort into them.  I am fine with players attacking unexpectedly, as that does indeed add to the role play, story, character development, as well as give you a feel that this is Sword Art Online.  As long as players are against their character dying however, they should have the right to decline it.  As Eira said, this isn't a death game where everyone should live in fear that they could die at any moment.  This is a role playing forum that players have gathered to in order to create, develop, and write stories with others, not watch their work vanish before their eyes.  As for Vigilon's comments, I have to say the same Ryo.  Full loss duels are something that both players accept.  You can't have a duel if both players are not ok with it.  If a duel begins, the cardinal registers this and thus it isn't a crime if one of the players kills the other, since they both agreed to it.

And yes players are allowed to kill made up player npcs of their own design.  This is where plot and story telling comes in.  If you want to be a pker but nobody wants their character to die (for obvious reasons) then take some time to think of some characters you can design, maybe a group or guild, create a story, and then set it in motion.  Nobody loses their characters and you get your villainous story.  In addition, if attacking players out of nowhere is allowed, pkers can use this technique to spread their name, become famous, without any real losses.

[Lessa 1]

I agree with much of what has already been said here, so I will keep my response brief.

We each run the risk of losing our character when we place them in trying situations. Join a boss battle? Create an overly powerful mob? Your character may die. Your account will be locked, and you will no longer be able to play unless you make or use an alt. We all understand that, but the beauty of it is, we choose to put our characters there. If we die, we are to blame.

This new system completely negates that. How in the world can we encourage new players to get stronger (leave safe zones, fight mobs, ACTUALLY USE THE SITE AS INTENDED) with the risk of death hanging over their head? It makes absolutely no sense to me. Even now, as a level thirty-something, I have no desire at all to join OPs. This rule change only acts to keep players in safe zones, and makes OPs too unsafe to be worth it. Considering OPs are a great way to bring the community together, I see no benefit at all from the change.

I am whole-heartedly in the "you must have permission" camp. Kill NPC players, if you so choose. If you're after that orange cursor, maybe staff could accommodate on a case-by-case basis. But don't ruin the experience for others, especially newcomers, to further your own character's plot. Wanna write a villain? Losing their mind? Slaughtering people? Please do! Because that's good storytelling. But killing players without their permission is just being a jerk, and I don't think the site should be a place for that.

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but we must consider what is best for the members. What will attract and keep new players? What will entertain the old? We already have a permanent death. We already have PvP and the option of player killing. Why virtually do away with PK rules, just to play up that "threat?" Don't we put our characters in threatening enough situations as-is? I don't feel like we can even use the "its canon" argument here, because we already address permanent deaths and the fear associated with it.

Quote

The best course of action is to understand that SAO-RPG, the roleplay site, is NOT Sword Art Online, the anime. 

I'm going to make this my signature. I'm going to shout it from the rooftops. I'm probably going to get it tattooed on my body somewhere. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Lessa

[Ssendom 0]

As Someone who got Assassinated without a chance for rebuttal. I think you understand where I stand on this.

[Lel on Tak in Discord. Cause he right.]

[Genji 0]

As an eleven year veteran of play by post roleplaying boards, I'll preface the rest of this response by saying that every site other than this one as of this update has left the power to decide whether a character lives or dies in the hands of their player. This prevents "ganking" scenarios, and situations in which bad blood arises between players because of a problem that would be easily avoided if person B respected person A's wishes.

That said.

In this particular environment, the free PK rule does several things that are even more deplorable than just taking the safety net out and raising tensions through the roof.

1: it consolidates and monopolizes power in the hands of the people with the most power. Nothing can stop someone from the Frontlines from deciding that they don't like a character, joining a thread with them, and PKing them outright. The initiative piece is not enough to prevent the lowest level characters from taking lethal damage outright, or within two turns- and with the running away rules as is, they'd no longer be able to do so to begin with.

2: It screams unnecessary drama. People have the ability to PK as is, and it isn't something that should be thrown about willy nilly. It wasn't a widespread act in the show- there were guilds dedicated to it, sure, but it got resistance eventually and fell to the wayside. It definitely should not be as huge of a plot point here on the site. Our goal is to write cohesively, as a team unit, and eventually clear floors. There can be rogue elements, but they should not become the core group.

 

So, how are we supposed to unify the players and write a better story if we introduce this twist and make players more afraid/uncomfortable with writing outside their comfort zone?

Edited October 18, 2017 by Genji

[Lessa 1]

Based on discussions in Discord, I support the following:

Require permission from green players. If you want that threat of death looming over your head at all times, always give permission when asked. Or write "available for PK attempts" in your signature.

Do not require permission from those with an orange cursor. They put their character at risk by killing in the first place. They can always choose to take the Redemption quest. There is choice. And right now, the site does not have enough punishment for PKers. In the real game, there is far more of a threat. Being excluded from safe zones is HUGE, but here, it doesn't matter. Removing the need for permission puts people at risk, but again, they can always choose to protect themselves by taking Redemption. Edit: Also just remembered that orange players can enter safe zones now. So I don't know. I don't really get that, as it doesn't seem canon at all. Wasn't a HUGE part of Aincrad the fact that orange players couldn't go into safe zones? There was an entire episode about it.

What this proposal does, at the end of the day, is make community building and networking possible. I have no desire to write with people I don't know when they could potentially kill me. In my mind, that's not the sort of atmosphere we should be fostering here. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Lessa

[Aereth 1]

Thanks for all of your input up until now. Since I'll be the one creating this hotfix your ideas really help me out a big time and I hope to get the fix out as soon as possible. 

From what I was able to gather the majority of players want the patch consisting of something like this:

• Back to NK per default for every thread. (@Pretty_Much_Everyone)
• Allowing players to enter threads and "scare" (needs proper definition) others ( @Kisodeth, @Itzal)
  • Also needs to be looked at from a SP gain perspective
  • RP combat only
• Orange players can ALWAYS be attacked and killed (@Lessa)

@Everyone_Who_Likes_2.5_Rules
While I also see the RP advantages of this new mechanic, we need to take care of what the majority of the players want. And if you really enjoy the thrilling feeling of getting killed all the time you can put a Killing Enabled Tag into your signature.

@Ryo 
I have to agree with Itzal and the likes on that matter. If you accept a duel and kill your opponent, there is no need to become orange, since both parties agreed on the consequences of that battle.

@Thorsten
I feel like the ruling for "little" crimes is adequate. If you are a pickpocket, that's no big deal for the first 3 times. But at some point these guys also need to be punished.

@Lessa
I totally love the idea of Orange players being open to be attacked at all times. It's like you said, their choice if they want to become orange.
Entering Cities:
Honestly, I feel like being able to enter cities is an important thing for RP. You can go for a drink, have some fun etc. Besides that, it's even canon for orange players to be able to enter safe zones. They can enter, but they get hunted by NPC guards, and thrown out of town if caught. And the implementation of using the Hiding Skill in order to enter and move inside of Save Zones is something I feel is appropriate. (Maybe the numbers need to be tweaked but that's what I'm here for right?)

[Vale 1]

14 hours ago, Aereth said:

Thanks for all of your input up until now. Since I'll be the one creating this hotfix your ideas really help me out a big time and I hope to get the fix out as soon as possible. 

From what I was able to gather the majority of players want the patch consisting of something like this:

• Back to NK per default for every thread. (@Pretty_Much_Everyone)
• Allowing players to enter threads and "scare" (needs proper definition) others ( @Kisodeth, @Itzal)
  • Also needs to be looked at from a SP gain perspective
  • RP combat only
• Orange players can ALWAYS be attacked and killed (@Lessa)

@Everyone_Who_Likes_2.5_Rules
While I also see the RP advantages of this new mechanic, we need to take care of what the majority of the players want. And if you really enjoy the thrilling feeling of getting killed all the time you can put a Killing Enabled Tag into your signature.

@Ryo 
I have to agree with Itzal and the likes on that matter. If you accept a duel and kill your opponent, there is no need to become orange, since both parties agreed on the consequences of that battle.

@Thorsten
I feel like the ruling for "little" crimes is adequate. If you are a pickpocket, that's no big deal for the first 3 times. But at some point these guys also need to be punished.

@Lessa
I totally love the idea of Orange players being open to be attacked at all times. It's like you said, their choice if they want to become orange.
Entering Cities:
Honestly, I feel like being able to enter cities is an important thing for RP. You can go for a drink, have some fun etc. Besides that, it's even canon for orange players to be able to enter safe zones. They can enter, but they get hunted by NPC guards, and thrown out of town if caught. And the implementation of using the Hiding Skill in order to enter and move inside of Save Zones is something I feel is appropriate. (Maybe the numbers need to be tweaked but that's what I'm here for right?)

Everything I have said in private conversations with others, shown above. I like you Aereth, you understand what the majority of the player base wants..

[Endilix 0]

There could be a middle ground based on the conclusions come to here Aereth. One thing I can propose, as someone who likes the 2.5 system, is that it just be tweaked to be more of a balanced thing. Common ground is often just as important as meeting the likes of one side of the fence or the other. So here's a possibility:

• NK default for every thread.
• Options for RP PVP or "threatening" is great.
• If players are less than 5 levels above the player they plan to attack, they use 2.5 PVP rules. If players are lower level than their target, they use 2.5 PVP rules no matter what.
  • This makes the playing field more even for attackers and defenders
  • This leaves Searching and Hiding as viable PVP skills (something I love, btw)
  • It keeps the element of surprise, which is a major facet of SAO canon.
  • This allows players to take down high value green targets if they are villain characters and even ganging up to do so, by attacking players who are higher level than them. But prevents players from overleveling just to smite another player using game mechanics.
  • As per usual, Orange players always follow 2.5 rules.
• In order to keep new players safe, T1 players cannot be killed by another player. Unless it is ONLY by permission and for the sake of story. If a T1 player attacks a T2+ player, they forsake their safety net for that specific battle.
  • By level 25, your character has a basic build, generally some gear, and has made friends. So they would be more capable and able to defend themselves.
• If players are in a party, the attacker must beat the initiative of all party members in order to get the full damage of the attack.
  • This promotes grouping and prevents a weaker target in a group, say a healer, from being isolated and murdered outright if there are members of the group with a high Searching skill.

I think this is a good middle ground that would make the general populace feel safe, while still promoting the proper open world PVP viability of SAO canonically. You're safe until T2, you can't get ganked, but you still have to watch your back sometimes and not make enemies just all willy nilly and be like, "lol can't kill me cause I don't give you permission." That's some grade A cartoon villain stuff.

But as always, that's just my two cents. I'll see you in the next discussion.

[Amira 0]

I know I'm a bit late to the party here, and I also know that anyone who knows me knows how I feel on this. But being someone who has experienced this I felt as though I ought to express my own opinion on pking. 

To be completely straight with all of you, no one gives a **** if a low level player dies. At least, generally speaking at the point very little effort has been put into the character time-wise. It would be sad and awful and off-putting for the one who died, but really, it isn't too big of a deal.

Now the real issue as I see it is pking for the high level players. High level players have potentially put years of their life into their character (ex. Me) and when that character is pked against their will it is devastating. Imagine putting tons of time and effort into a character only to log on one day out of the blue you find out all of the time and effort you put in is gone and meant nothing.

Things are different now. HP totals are higher, there is very little way to one shot someone, but I don't think that changes the fact that suprise pkings for high level characters shouldn't be allowed. Regardless of how much fewer pkings there will be if permission is required, this is a creative writing forum and a community. When someone of a high level gets pked, that's a member of the community that is more than likely gone. Zelrius, Ssendom, Me, and others who have been pked, where are they now? Not here, that's for damn sure, and they were dedicated involved members before they got their years of character development and leveling ripped away from them because someone else didn't like them OOC or wanted to have a little evil story arc.

This is an issue that I'm passionate about simply because I don't want it happening to anyone else. PKing is destructive to the community, this forum, and the person that it happens to. I don't think that there is even a question here of whether or not permission should be required.